Is nibbana similar to annihilation?

Yeah… I’ll go with Bhikkhu Bodhi and Walpola Rahula.

Are you say that the arahant is reborn into Nibanna? What is the fuel for this existance?

I think there has been a misunderstanding - you said “unless you’re an arahant I wouldn’t say nothing happens.” which in the context of this conversation could either mean that

'if you die as anything less than an arahant, something will happen after death’

OR

'only an arahant would truly be able to tell us the true nature of Nibbana’ (whether anything “happens” or not).

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The former :wink: apologies for confusion.

Rebirth, pain, sorrow, grief…

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Bhikkhu Bodhi is one of the most important experts on early Buddhism living today.

But he is not an Arahant.

Yes.
I think this really poses more questions though. For example the meaning of amata. ‘No more birth, no more death.’ Implies to me; no more birth, not even ‘into nibanna’. Nibanna is not just deathless, it’s birthless.

https://suttacentral.net/define/amata

This seems like a large detour from the op but one worth a thread if one hasn’t been created.

To me MN72 is very clear on the Flame simile.

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I’ll hand this over to Ajahn Brahmali.

The meaning of annihilation here is simply if something totally being destroyed permanently .

So, the question is if nibbana is
" non existence " , then both are not that different .

But , if nibbana is a state or a kind of reality , then of course both ultimately not having the same message !

If a candle runs out of wick and wax; is that anhialation of the flame?

If the candle runs out of heat…?

Basically, if there are no causes and conditions for something to continue is that anhialation?

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So, the fact here is the five aggregates seems to have no beginning but it can come to an end permanently !
I suppose you would agree something has vanished totally , especially the body !

Are you talking paranibanna here?

What is anhialated is craving (desire, aversion, delusion). While an arahant is alive they still have the 5 kandhas, they just don’t take them as self or permrnant.

Five aggregate is dependently originated due to causes and conditions.
It is not possible to trace a thing dependently originated.
If you take a house what is the origin of it?
The only thing we sure of is you can demolish it.

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There is a different between a rock and a human being . But , anyway it seems there were two definitions of the term nibbana . So, we are unable to determine it for certain , the simile used and the actuality could be a different matter .

If there is no fuel for a fire to burn then it goes out (arahantship) AND doesn’t reappear (paranibanna).

It cannot be proven “what is” or “not” after parinibbana . And doesn’t reappear of the 5 aggregates thereafter does not necessarily mean non existence .

Buddha avoided both existence and non-existence instead he taught us the dependent origination.

So, this still does not prove anything , it is hearsay . You may want to believe it so, I may believe it so, still remains unknown to us.

That is why you have to experience it your self.

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Exactly. Nibbana pertains to the third noble truth or axiom of Buddha’s teaching. And its respective ennobling task is for us to verify/realize it ourselves. The ennobling task is not about making it a philosophical dilemma or puzzle.

Let us not forget that the third noble truth and ita respective task in turn necessarily and naturally brings one to the next one, which is about the eightfold path, which is to be in turn developed by oneself and in a context of spiritual friendship and goodness.

In conclusion, if we just pick the noble truths individually either in our practice or speculation, we are diverging from the way the Buddha intended us to approach them. This is in my view the reason why the Buddha was specific in regards to what kind of conversations his contemplative disciples should engage, as per AN10.69:

modesty,
contentment,
seclusion,
non-entanglement,
arousing persistence,
virtue,
concentration,
discernment,
release, and
knowledge & vision of release.

And in that order!

:anjal:

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