The way I understand, the Paticca Samuppada is related to the mind and mind objects. Even though Paticca Samuppada consist of Nama-rupa, Salayatana and Jati they all are related to the mind not the physical aspect of the person.
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How so ? Isn’t jati explictly described as the physical emergence of a new being ?
I am not sure of this, How about Arupavacara beings? They do not have physical bodies.
Rupa (physical) factors in DO:
Rupa in Nama-Rupa (as in the foetus)
Eye, ear etc sense bases.
Bhava and Jati- in a material and fine-material realm
Excellent question. Does not the Buddha avoid the dichotomy of mind and matter?
I don’t think it matters, as with different ‘degrees’ of truth it can be material, mental impressions of the material, entirely mind or nothing at all. The DO is about a causal (or otherwise) association between the two components.
Why do you say that DYT?
I have to disagree.
I can’t prove my point, though.
I have to agree with the Ven. Abhaya with in this case except he thinks that Jati is matter (Rupa)(video in the Sinhalese language)
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I like this quote below, which includes the physical body:
When one abides inflamed by lust, fettered, infatuated, contemplating gratification, then the five aggregates affected by clinging are built up for oneself in the future; and one’s craving—which brings renewal of being, is accompanied by delight and lust, and delights in this and that—increases. One’s bodily and mental troubles increase, one’s bodily and mental torments increase, one’s bodily and mental fevers increase, and one experiences bodily and mental suffering.
MN 149
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It is important to note that Rupa includes space and consciousness as well.
I can’t recall the source.
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Hi Sarath
Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention — these are called mentality. The four great elements and the material form derived from the four great elements — these are called materiality. MN9
Rupa or materiality doesn’t include vinnana, at the very least. I remember reading something about rupa being physically limited by space- but we probably shouldn’t make a ‘material’ thing out of it -unless it is included under ‘dhammas’. There was a sutta quote which has nama, rupa, vinnana, space and nibbana as dhamma I think, but I can’t find it now.
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, ‘non-existence’ with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, ‘existence’ with reference to the world does not occur to one. SN12.15
Most people when they read that the DO doesn’t fall into existence (or non-existence) immediately take that to mean that it must be a mental phenomena (as if something is not really existing, then it must be mental factor).
However the Buddha teaches the dhamma via the medium of a third option (other than extant physical or mental), and ‘by the middle’ (neither existence or non-existence). This is Idapaccayata or that something arises causally connected and arisen, and also specifically so, is at the mechanics of this causality. This only a single factor arising and passing away, giving rise to its specific effect. In a single moment ‘in time’ that is all that exists. This can be experienced through vipassana, (once the dhamma has been conceptually understood).
with metta
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Yes, I do. But do keep in mind that the Buddha is able to articulate different kinds and levels of truths depending on the abilities of the listener (and whether if it will be beneficial to them). So he will speak of objects in the world etc, as well as mental state, which are valid statements in themselves. The Truth was in service of how helpful it was, especially in letting go (not as a prized goal, to be worshiped, clung to, made views of or made fodder for debating). We are prevented from reifying any version of reality- therefore we can let go of standpoints, and let go into nibbana.
with metta
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