Well, it’s certainly reassuring to have the support of virtuous and intelligent people!
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Hi Samseva,
Yes, it is a requirement:
Dutiya - agāravasuttaṃ
‘‘So vata, bhikkhave, bhikkhu agāravo appatisso asabhāgavuttiko ‘sabrahmacārīsu ābhisamācārikaṃ dhammaṃ paripūressatī’ti netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati. ‘Ābhisamācārikaṃ dhammaṃ aparipūretvā sekhaṃ dhammaṃ paripūressatī’ti netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati. ‘Sekhaṃ dhammaṃ aparipūretvā sīlakkhandhaṃ paripūressatī’ti netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati. ‘Sīlakkhandhaṃ aparipūretvā samādhikkhandhaṃ paripūressatī’ti netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati. ‘Samādhikkhandhaṃ aparipūretvā paññākkhandhaṃ paripūressatī’ti netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati.
- Irreverent (2)
“(1) Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu is irreverent and undeferential, and his behavior is uncongenial to his fellow monks, it is impossible for him to fulfill the factor of proper conduct. (2) Without fulfilling the factor of proper conduct, it is impossible for him to fulfill the factor of a trainee. (3) Without fulfilling the factor of a trainee, it is impossible for him to fulfill the aggregate of virtuous behavior. (4) Without fulfilling the aggregate of virtuous behavior, it is impossible for him to fulfill the aggregate of concentration. (5) Without fulfilling the aggregate of concentration, it is impossible for him to fulfill the aggregate of wisdom."
As I understand, “fulfilling the aggregate of concentration” means here the attainment of at least first jhāna.
There’s just a handful of instances when listeners of the Buddha attained Nibbāna by the end of the discourse:
Aditta-pariyaya SN 35.28
Chachakka MN 148
Mahāpuṇṇama MN 3.1.9 (109)
Anatta-lakkhana SN 22.59
Dvayatanupassana Snp III.12
Bahiya sutta Udana 1.10
Tiṃsamatta SN 2.4.3
Aggikkhandhopama AN 7.7.8
In all of these cases the listeners were highly trained.
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If I may ask, why do you think so?
I have this concern also. Jhana is so so incredibly useful in the path and it does say it is Right Concentration in the Suttas that not specifically practicing towards Jhana could cause a stopping short and lead people to miss using the big hammer in their practice for Nibbana.
I think we can get into the paralysis of analysis with this and it can lead one to think, “ah, my meditation is good enough. What I’m doing is right.” When the Buddha was very specific in teaching us to practice Jhana to release ourselves from Samsara.
What if we don’t practice towards Jhana and in our next human life the Buddha’s teachings are gone and there is no one to show us that Jhana is even a practice at all? This should be a very real concern because we do not know what unripe kamma we have waiting in the queue.
I think it is important to practice in the best way possible and Jhana is recommended by the Buddha as super duper important so we could be doing ourselves not only a disservice, but could be making a grave mistake of not taking advantage of what we have been given in this life to save ourselves from countless potential rebirths filled with oceans of more tears.
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My point is just that you cannot become a stream-enterer without “the knowledge and vision of things as they really are”. Stream-entry is seeing the Dhamma, gaining unshakeable confidence in the teachings of the Buddha. The essential part of this is seeing the five khandhas as being subject to the three characteristics of impermanence, suffering, and non-self.
“Knowledge and vision of things as they really” does not necessarily imply stream-entry, but stream-entry always implies “knowledge and vision of things as they really”.
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Pliability (mudu) of the mind, in connection with samādhi, is interesting to ponder about!
Absence of the hindrances → Concentrated mind → Malleable/pliable mind (mudu) → Possibility for drastic changes to occur in the mind
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I’m not reducing the importance of jhāna at all—quite the opposite. This is from an increase in interest in jhāna, as well as wanting a more complete understanding of jhāna (and the path).
It could be interpreted incorrectly from simply reading the title of the topic, however, from the discussion, conclusively knowing that jhāna is a requirement for both Non-Returner and Nibbāna (and possibly Once-Returner) is motivating to increase time spent and the quality of one’s meditation.
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Indeed! AN 3.101 is so exacting on the refinement of the mind, that even “thoughts about the Dhamma” need to be abandoned in order for the mind to be said to be mudu.
Honestly, we can’t really have our cake and eat it. The attempt to retain enough control and volition to be able to “do things” in a Jhana just flies in the face of this prescription as well as DN 9. The only role left for the Volition Aggregate in jhana is to generate emotions such as rapture or equipoise, and not in generating thinking.
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Hi Bhante
This reminds me of AN 3.25, where the 2nd kind of person appears to be a Stream Winner.
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Hmm. The part mentioning letting go of thoughts on even the Dhamma sounds like the fourth jhāna. It also comes right before development of supernormal powers, which usually comes after the fourth jhāna in other Suttas (also, from Bhikkhu Bodhi’s footnotes, it seems like the second paragraph quoted mentions Nibbāna).
The first jhāna is a lot more permitting, reflection on Dhamma being possible (although, that is debated). So we can have our cake and eat it too—however, thinking about that would probably result in being jolted out of jhāna! 
Here is Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation with the accompanying footnotes:
An earnest, capable bhikkhu abandons, dispels, terminates, and obliterates them. When this has been done, then there remain thoughts connected with the Dhamma. 558 That concentration is not peaceful and sublime, not gained by full tranquilization, 559 not attained to unification, but is reined in and checked by forcefully suppressing [the defilements]. 560
But, bhikkhus, there comes a time when his mind becomes internally steady, composed, unified, and concentrated. That concentration is peaceful and sublime, gained by full tranquilization, and attained to unification; it is not reined in and checked by forcefully suppressing [the defilements]. 561 Then, there being a suitable basis, he is capable of realizing any state realizable by direct knowledge toward which he might incline his mind .562
If he wishes:563 ‘May I wield […]
558 Dhammavitakkā. Mp glosses this as thoughts connected with the ten corruptions of insight (dasa vipassan’upakkilesavitakkā), but it seems this could just as well mean reflections on the teaching or on the meditation subject.
561 Ce and Ee na sasaṅkhāraniggayhavāritavato; Be –gato. SĀ 1246 (atT II 341c21–22) has: “The bhikkhu attains concentration that is not maintained by exertion; he attains the peaceful and sublime, the quiescent happy state, the unified mind, in which all the taints are destroyed.
AN 3.101, Paṃsudhovaka Sutta — The Soil Remover (transl. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
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Hee hee.
Regarding the concentration that " is not reined in and checked by forcefully suppressing", see DN 33; it’s referring to Right Concentration.
As for the psychic sequels, see AN 9.35. They are accessible after arising from any of the attainments.
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I always thought the supernormal powers (abhiññā) were only possible after the fourth jhāna (and arūpa jhānas), no? Even AN 9.35 describes them after only coming out from cessation of perception and feeling (saññāvedayita-nirodha):
The thought occurs to him, ‘What if I, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, were to enter & remain in the cessation of perception & feeling.’ Without jumping at the cessation of perception & feeling, he, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling.
When a monk enters & emerges from that very attainment, his mind is pliant & malleable. With his pliant, malleable mind, limitless concentration is well developed. With his concentration well developed & limitless, then whichever of the six higher knowledges he turns his mind to know & realize, he can witness them for himself whenever there is an opening.
If he wants, he wields manifold supranormal powers. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, and mountains as if through space. He dives in and out of the earth…
[…]
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Unfortunately, that not what the Pali says. The Pali says -
When a monk enters & emerges from this or that very attainment
In Pali, this distributive idiom says that the proposition applies to all of the previously mentioned attainments.
You’re certainly correct if you say that the DN 2 pericope mentions impertubability. To me, this is just emphasising the fruit of recluseship going possibly all the way to the 4th Jhana.
If you look at the DN 1 description of the psychic powers exercised by worldlings, there is no mention of the Impertubable. This suggests that the psychic powers are accessible without need to reach the 4th Jhana.
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This might be a case of aiming for the stars and landing on the moon! If someone has jhana as their goal, they might be more likely to develop a hindrance free samadhi, which might be enough for stream entry; but more practice in to the jhanas will enhance the ability to attain the stream, IMO.
The attainment of jhanas and stream entry, have both been individually praised by the Buddha. Arahathood is obviously the end goal. In essence we must practice all these components simultaneously after it is the one and the same mind which benefits. They bounce off on each other, hence develop each other.
"There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquility. As he develops insight preceded by tranquility, the path is born [stream entry - sotapatti magga]. AN4.170.
with metta
“Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they really are.
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“And what does he understand as they really are? He understands as it really is: ‘The eye is impermanent.’ He understands as it really is: ‘Forms are impermanent.’… ‘Eye-consciousness is impermanent. ’… ‘Eye-contact is impermanent.’… ‘Whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition—whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant—that too is impermanent.’…
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“He understand as it really is: ‘The mind is impermanent.’… He understand as it really is: ‘Whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition … that too is impermanent.’
.
“Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they really are.” SN35.99
The following sutta shows how when a person sees it in this way in a state of samadhi, they (might) become stream entrants.
At Savatthi. "Monks, the eye is inconstant, changeable, alterable. The ear… The nose… The tongue… The body… The mind is inconstant, changeable, alterable.
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"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.
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"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.
.
“One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening.” SN25.1
with metta
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Yes, quite right.
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Hi Samseva
You may not be aware that the Buddha called Jhana (which, almost always means the four form jhanas in the suttas, not the formless attainments), the (Middle) Way that avoids the two extremes of sensual indulgence and self mortification, the Way to liberation.
This happened after he had tested the two extremes and reflected on an experience he had as a boy under a tree, as his father did the ploughing festival.
This being the case, the common presentation of jhana as just the eighth step in the path, would seem to be incompatible.
Now Sati is spoken of as much as the Buddha seems to have spoken of Jhana. The texts have him speaking very little about sati compared to Jhana.
Having looked at the Jhana descriptions in the suttas carefully, I find 11+ factors, not simply Sariputta’s and the commentarial five and I can see the pattern of the whole path. See: 20091228 Whoever sees Dependent Arising, sees Dhamma - Comparative Chart 2 | Brother Joe Smith - Academia.edu.
I believe that some time in Buddhist history, the relevance of Jhana was downplayed, probably by those who didn’t really meditate, the study monks, who had power over the texts.
See my article on comparisons of jhana, samadhi etc in the Pali texts: Concentration - Jhāna, Samādhi From Comparative Studies of Pali Texts | Brother Joe Smith - Academia.edu.
best wishes
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Hi Bhante,
(Apologies for the late reply—I haven’t logged into my account for some time.)
Yes, I fully agree with you regarding the importance of jhāna. And also about sammā-samādhi being not only jhāna, but also “concentration without any of the defilements or fetters present”—which was partly my reason for the thread.
Kind regards
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I’d like to make a highly and crucially important point about this thread, since there seems to be posts made about it, with the implicit meaning that: “jhāna isn’t that important, even for the path of stream-entry/once-returner…” (or even “for the path as a whole”).
I’d like to make clear that my intention with this thread was, first, to clarify a common belief that “sammā-samādhi is simply the four jhānas,” as it is often described in the Suttas (there are multiple definitions of sammā-samādhi), and by some people. The issue with this (if it were true), is that, developing all aspects of the Eightfold Path is important, but if jhāna hasn’t been developed, then it would mean that such a person would in a way not be practicing all the eight parts of the Eightfold Path.
It is not true that sammā-samādhi is only the four jhānas. Even concentration developed from simply attempting to develop jhāna, is the development of higher levels of concentration, and of sammā-samādhi.
The second point, being the most important, has to do with that, although it is possible for one to reach sotāpattimagga/sakadāgāmimagga without jhāna, it is much more the case that it is unlikely. It in no way means that “jhāna isn’t needed,” it means that it’s simply not impossible for one to reach sotāpattimagga/sakadāgāmimagga without jhāna. In the same way that it’s not impossible to jump 2.4 meters (the highest jump in the world was done in 1993, and was of 2.45 meters). One could become a once-returner without jhāna, but it is unlikely.
Now, discouragement is the crux of the issue. In the same way that jumping 1m isn’t that difficult after some training, jhāna also isn’t as difficult as most make it out to be. And even if you don’t reach jhāna in one week, one month, or one year—you are still developing higher levels of concentration. Concentration/sammā-samādhi and jhāna is a spectrum, and jhāna is simply a form of concentration where there are certain aspects of the mind that are absent (five hindrances), and aspects of the mind (thought-conception/vitakka, discursive thinking/vicāra, rapture/pīti, pleasure/sukha) that are present—that’s all.
Again, jhāna is essential for the path. Even if you can’t attain yet, don’t give up, persist, and in a few weeks, months, or even a year if that is what is needed (of consistent meditation practice), you will be able to reach jhāna.
As with AN 4.162, there are four modes of progress:
Bhikkhus, there are these four modes of practice. What four?
(1) Practice that is painful with sluggish direct knowledge;
(2) Practice that is painful with quick direct knowledge;
(3) Practice that is pleasant with sluggish direct knowledge; and
(4) Practice that is pleasant with quick direct knowledge.
These are the four modes of practice.
Although the above sutta describes knowledge, concentration is a direct requirement and condition for the arising of wisdom/paññā. If there is no concentration, then there can be no wisdom/paññā. Therefore, the path without at least some higher levels concentration is a path that will be painful, or the worst of the four modes above (“(1) Practice that is painful with sluggish direct knowledge”).
To illustrate my point, as with the Suttas, a simile is helpful: the path without jhāna or higher levels of concentration, is like travelling the oceans on a small and broken-down raft; the path with higher and more developed levels of concentration is like navigating the oceans on a small motorboat; and the path with jhāna is like travelling any of the great oceans with a 30-foot well-built sailboat.
Develop jhāna, even if it takes months, or even one or multiple years (again, of consistent meditation practice). The path without jhāna is a painful one—and higher levels of concentration are needed to progress with one’s practice, and on the path.
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Ajahn chah says the following in his teachings: ‘In fact,
the Buddha didn’t wish for a lot of samadhi. He didn’t want jhana
and samapatti. Some places teach this deep tranquility, to sit with delight in quietude. The
meditators then get intoxicated by their samadhi. If they have sıla, they
get intoxicated by their sıla. If they walk the path, they become intoxicated
by the path, dazzled by the beauty and wonders they experience,
and they don’t reach the real destination’ I know thich nhat hanh directly calling them wrong concentration. Of course there is also the view of vipassana jhanas.