Is singing bad for the mental development?

I have read that chewing gum can help remove “ear worms” like that.
I haven’t tried this myself as yet.

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Exactly! It is a perculiarity of situation that should define our response. Every situation is different and requires our fresh thinking. Otherwise we are reduced to mechanical clockworks, but it’s easy and without burden of responsibility.

I think it depends on what kind of music you listen to, and how you do it. If you listen to good classical music you have to be very mindful, if you are not mindful you miss a lot. Mindfulness is even sharper if you listen to a piece of music you really love. Though I wouldn’t call it Right Mindfulness from the Noble Eightfold Path :slightly_smiling_face:
Also, music can be healing.

But there is no music which is more beautiful than silence. Whether music is good or bad for your mental developement depends on where you are on the path, what is your relationship with music and, most importantly, what is your relationship with deep and beautiful silence of meditation.

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Same way you can be mindful when angry, horny, etc.

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Rest!

:grinning:

:wink:

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I would like to ask you, what is the difference between music and poetry or painting. I know many monks writing poetry or drawing /painting. I can’t understand how this is allowable and music or dancing is not. For me creating different arts is very similar artistic process in which mind can be used skillfully.

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My understanding is that it depends on the state of the mind while doing the action that is notable. If a monastic is able to keep a wholesome mind and the goal is sharing the Dharma, perhaps that monastic’s actions are then wholesome and useful?

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The way I understand that monks are not allowed to engage in those activities.
Equanimity is the goal for a meditating monk which can not be reached by engaging with art related activities.
Perhaps we need the input from our leaned monk in this forum.
I wish to know what Bhante @sujato think about this considering that he was a musician before he became a monk.

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I think it depends very much on which stage you’re at.

From the music thread:

Music like this has always inspired me to think about the meaning of life and stuff, and obviously the composers must have had some introspective moments which have flown into the work.

I believe that creating art of various kinds and being inspired by it can be good for spiritual development up to some point.

Also, although I am a very bad singer and rarely do it (only if no one listens), I can attest to some truth in the findings of the study referred to in daverupa’s post.

Singing/making music/any kind of art can be a helpful way to deal with and process things which may be difficult to process otherwise. Some people are good at it and can even uplift and inspire others with it (or drag them down with them…), others not so.

I think it is obvious that artistic expression relies a lot on passion, is nourished by passion, and nourishes passion, and that passion in itself is never ultimately good and peaceful or insightful, but it is as with all the worldly winds that one can use them in a good or bad way to some extent.

Therefore, to seek enlightenment, one will naturally have to leave such things behind at some point, and that is why for monks and nuns there are rules about that, to not behave in such manners, to train themselves in becoming dispassionate about such sensual stimulation and instead seek to develop the blameless pleasure of meditation as an alternative, leading to liberating insight to go beyond all this craze (suttas in verse, like this, are also a form of art, making use of the reader’s/listener’s passion in visualizing this situation, yet in a quite more soberly and solemn tone, that will inspire one to seek to become free of passion; some music has connotations like that as well, I think, but with the musical intonation it is always tinged with this addictive taste of pleasure for pleasure’s sake alone that is so difficult to let go off [creating earworms and such]).

But we are not all on that level yet. And I think as laypeople we can even make good use of music for our spiritual uplifting and mental development, finding the right measure. I am very grateful for bands like Iron Maiden and the like, who have been a great solace in my youth.

However, I also notice that debauchery in musical indulgence can break my peace or clarity of mind, and even capacity to think and act conscientiously (as with very emotional music of various sorts, this can seep into the mind like poison and feel afterwards as if one had taken some kind of opiate [I have taken opium once, it was a really disgusting, “deadening” kind of pleasure]). So I think, yes, there is a point where it becomes quite detrimental, so we should try to be mindful about it.

And I am almost always annoyed when my colleague at work listens to his music on his headphones loud enough for me to hear. That is another thing one can lose track off: to not annoy others with one’s indulgance what oneself finds pleasurable.
Sometimes, however, I can feel good for him listening to this kind of music, even if I don’t like it or the sound chips away at my concentration, because it seems to help him with his concentration when he’s “in the flow”. So it depends on the mood and what we’re doing, and what these pleasures are used for, one can even have mudita with some people enjoying something when one does not like it and so the dislike can evaporate and attention go to more useful things. But that is actually really hard with music, because it so easily captivates one’s attention even if one is just annoyed with it (almost like a woman).

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Agree.
This is one of the most annoying unless you are a meditator.
Actually, many people are not aware of that they are doing it.

But you didn’t actually stop listening to music, if I may hazard a perhaps-hasty guess.

What you stopped listening to were certain kinds of music, actually is my guess.

Pāli chanting it still music. The bell one hits when meditating (if one does that sort of thing) is a musical tone.

The Muslims, of some schools, for instance, are not allowed to listen to “music”. But the Koran is chanted (i.e. sung) every day, and many of them themselves chant the Koran. Furthermore the beauty of Koran recitation is famed throughout the world. So much for a religion that has no music in it!

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In some schools, I am thinking about Zen particularly, music and the cultivation of music is seen as a matter of discipline, rather than sensuous enjoyment. You can see this in the austere and passionless, but extremely technically demanding, Shakuhachi repertoire from Japan, which was cultivated in some Zen schools.

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Unskilfully: get caught up in it, let the mind be ‘taken over by it’, let it give rise to unwholesome emotions and delusions

Skilfully: listen to it with equanimity (not much fun, but some enjoyment present sukha vedana that even a arahanth will have), be mindful of the individual sounds or notes arising and passing away -to have anicca sanna, to perceive impermanence.

with metta

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If such mindful and equanimous enjoyment is replaced by revulsion, then apparently it can lead to Nibbana. :slight_smile:

Thag 4.1

And the Buddha didn’t mince words either.

AN 3.107

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Thank you Sujith.
I can’t recall reading this.
You hit the nail on the head!

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On a more ‘mundane’ note, I found listening to music useful in a few ways-

  1. when tired and driving around, I find energetic music energises me, keeps me awake.
  2. meditation music, calms me when agitated.
  3. Nursery rhymes in song help me keep my son distracted when it comes to feeding.

In any case, we shouldn’t get attached (song going round and round…) or averse (stop listening to music, or else…) to music- just let it be. I might add, lay people are ‘allowed’, if you like, to enjoy sensual pleasure- that is well within their remit. We discuss the highest standard on the forum, though as trainees still on the path, our conduct will not always match this- and that is OK.

with metta

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I stopped several years ago listening to music that I used to put on for enjoyment purpose or to distract myself.
Meanwhile I cannot stop listening to music produced by others such as my wife singing students. I now find it a great opportunity to notice where I am in regard to my attitude to music; such as commenting about such and such voice quality, style of music, and sometimes emotions coming up (anything that sound a bit bluesy).
The aim is not to avoid music all together (impossible) but develop equanimity about it.

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I uses to sing in a choir and later in a barber-shop quartet ( close harmony singing). I found both inspiring and a useful exercise in concentration. I used to enjoy monks and nuns chanting at a Buddhist monastery, and these days enjoy organ recitals. So there! :laughing:

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Enlightened, now?!