Is the Tathagata literal suffering?

Good day

It took me a while to figure out that this is what you meant, i only understood before going to sleep.

It’s such a weird proposition that i couldn’t understand what you meant by literal & metaphorical.

Consider this.

We say a person is burdened by many things, eg indebtedness, guilt & remorse, obligations, etc

None of this is like carrying a luggage to the airport. A true metaphor would be saying ‘being freed from debt is a load of one’s shoulders’.

However i think it is also literal because people are burdened by many things, not only by heavy luggage on the way to the airport.

As i see it, It’s like the distinction between bodily pain and grief. One could say, to grief is not literal pain, it is a metaphorical pain because there is no physical pain, but one could also say that it is literally a kind of pain.

As i see it, the constructed is dukkha in a definitive sense, this is the foremost dukkha and a standard for reference.

Apologies.
I saw the words used several times in your posts, including in several questions you raised, so assumed they were yours.
However, the content of the response was offered with respect to your overall questions.

:pray:

Perhaps this would make more sense if, instead of choosing ‘suffering’ to render dukkha, something like ‘unsatisfactory’ was used. Or ‘incapable of real happiness’.

It seems most of these mental knots result from language problems. I unfortunately do not understand the meaning of the title of this thread, or ‘literal suffering’.
Am I meant to feel better if, while having a toothache, someone told me my pain was metaphorical?

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You are not mad or at least you are not alone. This literal reading makes no sense to me either. To me it is overreach while getting ensnared in ontological commitments. It also leads to arguing with the world which I do not believe the Teacher supported. By arguing with the world I mean it goes against common everyday understanding of words. :pray:

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Would you object if somebody said “a headache is suffering”?

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Ahh! Then maybe we were just of different minds when it came to the word literal. What I am saying then is that just in the way that we shouldn’t construe the Teachers words about the person being the carrier of the aggregates to mean the person literally carries around the aggregates physically… in just that same way I do not think it is appropriate to construe the Teachers words saying that the aggregates are suffering to mean that the aggregates are literal suffering.

To my mind the words are and is should be treated very carefully; just like you were handling a snake. They are powerful words, but if used in an unskillful way their bite can lead to ruin. Why? Because their bite conjures ontological commitments - views if you will - that beings mistakenly grasp on to thinking those ontological commitments to be true existences.

The aggregates are suffering. ← that “are” is a powerful word and if you grasp onto it with some kind of ontological commitment; beware. I think the Teacher warned us against this.

:pray:

Is describing a toothache considered an ‘ontological commitment’?

This question wasn’t for me, but it is a good question!

I wouldn’t object to a figurative reading as such. I would object if someone took that to imply a literal equivalence in all respects. Maybe rather than object I would say I can’t sign off on that as it might actually give me a headache. Why?

Because to the same extent you can say a headache is suffering you can also say a paper cut is suffering. And if a headache is literal suffering and a paper cut is literal suffering, then we would be forced to the messy entanglement that a headache is a paper cut.

Personally, I would rather stay away from such messy entanglements that lead to saying headaches are paper cuts as it hurts my head.

:pray:

A dog is an animal. A cat is an animal. A dog is not a cat.

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You are saying a headache isn’t suffering because it’s the same as a paper cut?

Does this make a paper cut metaphorical suffering?

We are in agreement! :grin:

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Not necessarily? But the thoughts going through the person composing the description would I guess tell the tale. :pray:

No, I am saying it is perfectly fine to say a headache is suffering. Also perfectly fine to say a paper cut is suffering :pray:

Would the pain felt by a girlfriend left by her boyfriend because of a fear of ontological commitment be considered a metaphorical suffering, like a paper cut?

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It is curious the work that the word “an” is doing isn’t it? :pray:

I approve this pun. Glad to find fellow punners on the forums :grin:

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Yes, it’s fun.
But is it only fun? Because if, as someone suggested elsewhere, if it’s only fun then it can’t be about people and their emotions because ‘only’…:grinning:

(When someone objects to me telling them their toothache is ‘only’ ‘metaphorical suffering’ I will refer them to this forum !)

No, I don’t think puns are literal fun. They are literal funs though and I will even invest in that ontological commitment damn the consequences! :grin:

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Yes this would be quite mad.

Here we disagree. I say it is not only suffering, it is the foremost bad thing to occur. It’s like a disease or an affliction.

Existence is thus reckoned in light of discerning the unmade as the cessation of feeling states.

If there was no unmade then painful feelings would be reckoned as pain; the pleasant feelings would be reckoned as pleasure; and the foremost pleasant feeling, namely the equanimity of neither perception nor non-perception, would be the foremost definitive pleasure.

However there is an unmade, discerned by attaining the cessation of perception & feeling.

One who attains it comes to regard only this as happiness and all feeling states as suffering.

All this is very explicit in the texts.

Even the foremost pleasant feeling ought to be contemplated as dukkha by focusing on it’s unttractiveness such as it’s nature to change.

This is not the best example but it will do

“There is the case, Ananda, where a monk, having practiced in this way — (thinking) ‘It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon’ — obtains equanimity. He relishes that equanimity, welcomes it, remains fastened to it. As he relishes that equanimity, welcomes it, remains fastened to it, his consciousness is dependent on it, is sustained by it (clings to it). With clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is not totally unbound.”

“Being sustained, where is that monk sustained?”

“The dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.”

“Then, indeed, being sustained, he is sustained by the supreme sustenance.”

“Being sustained, Ananda, he is sustained by the supreme sustenance; for this — the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception — is the supreme sustenance. There is [however] the case where a monk, having practiced in this way — ‘It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon’ — obtains equanimity. He does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it. As he does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it, his consciousness is not dependent on it, is not sustained by it (does not cling to it). Without clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is totally unbound.” Aneñja-sappaya Sutta: Conducive to the Imperturbable

Even that pinnacle of feeling is not worth relishing because it’s dukkha whereas the extinguishment is bliss

“Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’ SuttaCentral

If one doesn’t see the constructed as a suffering, a disease and a murderer then it’s really impossible to turn away as one will not be able to overcome the relishment & clinging.

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People who think that the aggregates aren’t dukkha and that dukkha is only experienced as a result of clinging to things.

This is akin to a person trying to grab a red hot iron ball thinking ‘if only i can grab this thing in the right way it’d be fine’.

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