Is the Vinaya fit for purpose?

It may have become that, but it did not start that way. Sujato’s work on this topic is helpful when looking for the difference.

The extra rules were originally for protecting the nuns from a misogynistic society.

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Lol, thanks for this excellent question!
:sparkling_heart:

You make a lot of sense.
As Bhante Dhammarakkhita already explained, the rules were never meant as an expression of a timeless truth, fixed for all eternity. They mostly deal with very mundane matters. Even at the Buddha’s time, they were adapted, changed, dropped, etc. all the time by the Buddha himself when they were no longer applicable because conditions had changed. So it seems quite strange to expect that they still be kept “purely” 2500 years afterwards, when there never was such as thing as “purely” in the first place!

Just as an aside: The monks have rules that nuns don’t have as well. And not all of the nuns’ rules are subjugating them to monks. Some of them are there to expressly protect them from being exploited and are actually quite beautiful.

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Ayya @vimalanyani … it’s urgent to make a good translation of Vibhanga’s nuns-specific rules. Has it been done?

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Ajahn @Brahmali has made a recent translation but it’s not yet published. I’m not sure about the time frame for publishing.
Maybe Ayya @Vimala knows more.

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I’m still working on the Bhikkhu Vibhanga. When that’s done the Bhikkhuni Vibhanga is next.

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Hi dzt,

No.

May I suggest that you learn a bit about Vinaya first before making demands on how others should keep it. You seem to know very little, but have unrealistic expectations about some “pure form of vinaya”.

In fact, it is very clear to everyone who knows even a little about vinaya what the chronology of the rules is. To simplify: Patimokkhas first, plus a little bit of the Khandhakas, then Vibhangas, then Khandhakas, then Parivara, then various commentaries, then subcommentaries, then modern works… Virtually thousands of rules.
There is nobody here disputing that the rules

Garudhammas don’t fall into that category at all, and neither do any of the things I suggested in the part that you quoted from me.
If you would like to get even a glimpse of what is involved when studying vinaya I suggest Bhante Sujato’s “Bhikkhuni vinaya studies”. It will give you some ideas about a few issues with a small portion of the bhikkhuni rules, which are only a tiny fraction of overall vinaya.

As people have pointed out quite a few times already (including myself), the rules have always been flexible. There is no black and white, almost all the rules are subject to interpretation and depend on context. Even in the Buddha’s day, people kept all sorts of vinaya. The sangha was spread out over the Ganges plain, rules were constantly laid down, modified, rescinded, adapted, etc., and there were no mobile phones to keep up with new developments. I have pointed this thread out to you before that collects passages from the earliest texts on how senior monastics didn’t keep patimokkha rules. Straight after the Buddha’s passing, when the first council recited the rules they considered authoritative, other monks rejected them and said they prefered to keep following what they themselves considered to be “more original.” And these discussions have been ongoing ever since.
Nobody lives like in the Buddha’s time anymore. It is illegal nowadays to live in forests, and you can’t go on alms round every day in the West, “with senses guarded, eyes downcast, standing silently in front of houses.” You simply will not get any food. So we adapt our lifestyle, and reinterpret the rules, as they always have been reinterpreted in new contexts. It’s got nothing to do with them being “difficult”, or people not being willing to train in the rules, it’s about them not making sense in a new context.

Now with regards to the garudhammas, there is a reciprocal relationship between monks and nuns. Monks have a duty to teach nuns and support them with advice and formal sangha acts. This happens only sporadically nowadays, with many monks ditching their responsibilities prescribed in their patimokkha, and instead doing whatever they can to create obstacles for nuns. Since they severely damage this reciprocal relationship, nuns don’t need to keep their side of the bargain either.

The same goes for laypeople and monastics. Monastics can only keep their rules if they have adequate lay support. May I ask you, since you advocate so strongly for keeping the vinaya “purely”, do you give the necessary support to your sangha? Do you offer your services with financial transactions, so that they don’t need to handle money? Do you drive them around, so they don’t need to drive themselves? Do you regularly offer food, so they don’t need to cook? etc…? If you do, good on you. But if laypeople don’t do their bit, they can’t expect monastics to be able to keep the rules.

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Hi Meida

Yes and I believe that is how it would be amongst Arahants.

For me there is not just a focus on an individual, but an individual in relation to others. The Vinaya rules about mixing of the sexes, for those who still are stuck in gender roles (and unwholesome sexual desire), seem to be useful to me in providing a support for practice. One still has sexual desire and, I believe, has to work out how to identify what is wholesome and what is unwholesome sexual desire.

If one were Arahant, then the rules would not apply, as the conditions would be invalid. I am talking about the minor rules, such as not co-habiting. I believe an Arahant would naturally not break the serious rules (parajika and sanghadisesa) which cover morality/ethics.

disrepute is a worldly dhamma, the concern of worldly people. As I read the suttas, the Buddha just lived his life, lived Dhamma, e.g. talking to cortesians and whether others made accusations about him or not, was not his business. If they approached him and asked him, he would reply according to Dhamma.

we can live in fear of disrepute or live a peaceful abiding and deal with what is actually in front of us

best wishes

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Thank you all very much for this excellent discussion. Bhante @anon61506839 your contributions have really helped me look at the issue more clearly. :anjal:

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Well roared, lioness! :lion: :heartpulse: :heartpulse: :heartpulse:

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Or maybe it would be better for monks to do what they are actually supposed to?..

Absolutely.

I’ve got an impression that some people do. Forgive me if I am wrong.

I will. Thank you.

Regarding the “extended rules”, which are relatively new (post-patimokkha), I tend to think they hold the same value as commentaries and commentaries on commentaries on suttas: maybe useful, but maybe not. But in the course of discussions I’ve got an impression it’s the patimokkha that is questioned too (doesn’t mean it hasn’t been altered at all, but I simply insisted one has to treat this very carefully).

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I appreciate your reply. Enjoy your vinaya studies! :slight_smile:

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Scared the realms of hell out of me! :eyes:

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:zipper_mouth_face::sneezing_face::triumph:

:grin::smiley:

:innocent:

:pray:t6:

:upside_down_face:

Heh, heh…love this! I guess it has to be a two pronged attack. The outer efforts to make the external conditions compassionate and inspiring and the inner efforts to be at peace with this samsaric mess that can’t ever really be fixed - and not because some guru somewhere tells you to let go and not make waves - but because you see it in your own heart and it’s Your Own Truth, a Truth the Buddha knew too.

If I may make a suggestion, from a simple lay supporter to her beloved Sangha…

I think it might be a nice thing to have, for us ignorant laity, some kind of publication based on such research and work. Perhaps it doesn’t have to be some majorly comprehensive manual! Most of us wouldn’t have the time for that. But a pamphlet touching on some of the issues that this thread has brought up.

Perhaps about flexibility, compassionate interpretation and how they’re based in ancient precedents. The difference between what’s early and what’s not. How Vinaya is practised in reality amongs most monks in the world. How there’s no overarching person or institution (certainly not in the West)… I dunno…you’ll know better than me! Something useful, and with the intention of communicating what you need us to know and what would help us to support you so that the next generation can have more conducive conditions and so the Sasana can be protected in the best possible way. Something that would encourage us to study up (if we’re lucky enough to have the time!) on such things ourselves and be more informed intelligent supporters.

I think, as representations of the Sangha, an aspect of the Triple Gem we take Refuge in, it is part of your ancient duty to do something like this. This is something the Sangha have to lead the way in. It has to be your voices. Particularly the nuns’ voices.

I can imagine and I really 'am very sympathetic. I only wish you all - nuns and monks - many opportunites to dwell in silence, seclusion and peace. It makes me happiest and most inspired to imagine you like this. However, it is the nature of livelihood to be a pain in the neck! Most lay people’s livelihoods are, at least some times, tiresome, exhausting and frustrating. Mine is!

The Sangha has, in my opinion, the Rightest Livelihood of all Right Livelihoods! Despite this blessing, even you all are not going to be exempt from good ole, ever present, Suffering! One of the roles of the Sangha, as I see it, as I both accept and expect it, is that you’re guardians of the Dhamma-Vinaya. In recitation and translation and preservation of texts. In the very living of your lives of renunciant peace and love - to keep that going and keep it healthy, so it’s always there as a resource for those who need it and are ready for it. And also, to teach us. To teach us Dhamma so we may grow, so we may be inspired to join you, to support you. To truly support you, we need to have some kind of meaningful understanding of what you need and what you’re going through. If people care enough to ask questions and make demands, I do think it’s part of your job, your Right Livelihood, to be there for them and help them understand.

I imagine this might be tricky and potentialy hazardous to your mental health!! You’re probably rolling your eyes at my naiveity! :slight_smile: Of course you need to safeguard your space, your healthy boundaries; otherwise you’re not fulfilling your role of keeping a living Refuge alive as a resource for all of us! But I do believe this task is part of your “Job Description” - to whatever extent you can gently manage it.

Anyway, I hope I’ve not offended anyone in saying such things. I really felt it needed to be said. Please forgive me if I’ve caused offence or spoken about things that I know little about. I can only talk from the place I’m at; and I do so out of a hope that it will be of some use.

With much metta, especially to all the kind hearted Sangha out there.

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Not at all. Please do speak up! @AnagarikaMichael just made the most beautiful post about right speech:

I wonder if western Buddhism is becoming so comfortable with a kind of neutered or sterile gloss in terms of discussion and advocacy, that we are almost afraid to really engage vigorously on important issues? The Buddha that I see in the Nikayas is a vigorous man, not afraid to take on conventions of his time, or tackle views that were inconsistent with his Dhamma. I’ve never understood the sensibility that we want our monks and nuns to be pious, and quiet, afraid to step into the light and really advocate for a Dhamma that is true to the original teachings.
I am also troubled by the use of Right Speech as a hammer, to create a chilling effect on monastics (or anyone) that speak with the same vigor and conviction that the Buddha displays in the Canon.

:sparkling_heart:


Anyway, what kind of pamphlet did you have in mind? What would be most beneficial for laypeople, IYO?
Could the essential information fit on an A4 page, assuming that nobody will read anything that is longer? Or is there sufficient interest in vinaya matters that a longer booklet would be helpful?
Also, how would you want to use it? For upload on discourse as a reference? If you wanted to distribute it at your local centres, it might be much better to get a local monastic to write it.
And how serious would a booklet by an unknown young nun be taken? Wouldn’t people rather read something by a “big name”?

Bhante @anon61506839, is this similar to what you are doing? Your work is much more extensive than a little pamphlet of course, but could your work be adapted?

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Yes that’s exactly what i’m working on, it involves just that kind of analysis and discussion for every single rule, regulation, and procedure, in the entire bhikkhu Vinaya.

I don’t think it will be easy to adapt that into a tiny pamphlet, for the reason that the mere representation of a single rule takes few lines. So you can make a pamphlet about a specific topic, or a selection of rules, but not all. I’m half way and the result is proving much bigger than I hoped! And that being the case after chopping off nearly all pedantry! But it will be easy though to “browse” through the study by subject or keyword, and it won’t be copyrighted so you and @anon29387788 can have your way with the text. :slight_smile:

As for that, the publications I already came across which were targeting laity, they represent vinaya as a dead text or assume that we are talking about the most strict sects (which thrive through extensively harnessing immense lay support!). This is actually perhaps one of the reasons laypeople have amusing expectations! People writing books about Vinaya probably cannot conceive of a vinaya other than the one in the Canon, there are no critical approaches except very recently and more specifically on the bhikkhuni issues. So i would say that there really isn’t anything realistic about Vinaya for laity yet, as far as I know. Which is actually quite an important matter and thanks for reminding us of it.

There will be a long introduction/discussion in my study and it is written for everyone, lay and monastic alike, and does not presume any previous knowledge on vinaya. A publication might certainly help, but I believe nothing informs the laity better than direct contact.
It is a good way to practise patience!

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I did not say only socially constructed. I do not dispute any of what you say about brain structure, evolutionary past, etc. However, none of these things demand that we speak about them in a certain way. Let me give an example.

There is a biological basis for having freckles. It is probably an expression of a certain gene, or group of genes. Perhaps some people are sexually attracted to people with freckles, and some are not. Suppose we were to divide humanity into two categories. The frecklers and the nofrecklers. We could have sub groups, such as frecklers who are attracted to other frecklers and label them homofrecklers. Frecklers who are attracted to non-frecklers would be heterofrecklers. We could associate certain mental traits and behaviors with the two groups, and our culture might start conditioning frecklers and nofrecklers into specific social roles at a young age.

It would be entirely appropriate for a Buddhist to point out that the grouping of humanity into frecklers and nofrecklers is a social construct, and that the categories are empty of inherent existence, that is to say, there is no freckler or nofreckler self . There is nothing about having or not having freckles that demands we should create these mental categories and divide humanity in that way. The categories of frecklers and nofrecklers do not exist from their own side.

In the same way, I have a penis like a lot of other humans. There are also a lot of humans who have vaginas. But the grouping of humans with penises into the category “men” and humans with vaginas into the category “women” is no more a logical necessity than frecklers and nofrecklers. The categories of men and women do not exist from their own side, just like frecklers and nofrecklers do not exist from their own side. They are empty of self and exist merely as imputed labels, for our convenience.

And it is all about convenience and usefulness. Since we are not omniscient and cannot know everything directly we must rely on simplifying, grouping according to patterns and abstracting. Otherwise we would not be able to function in this world. A supposed divine omniscient being would have no use for crutches like categories and labels in order to make sense out of experience, but we do. The question is if some labels and certain ways of abstracting and categorizing have outlived their usefulness, or perhaps were never all that useful in the first place. Hutu and Tutsi were labels that were arbitrary, empty and used in extremely destructive ways by humans who reified them. They were never useful to anyone.

Whether or not men & women as socially constructed categories are useful or not is not for me to judge. I personally find it unlikely that humans will stop using them any time soon, but I certainly don’t think it is impossible, nor would I object to a society where nobody cared if you had a penis or a vagina and viewed each other as simply human, just like most people now don’t care if you have freckles or not, even if it is probably true that some people are attracted to freckles and others are not.

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Yes, I agree! :slight_smile:

Something grounded in the types of questions/demands that you find they mostly seem to make. You could even ask them directly. And then you could include anything else that you want them to understand.

I think people would read something a little longer. Let’s say, something that would fit on the back and front of 5 A4 pages; with a small, but not tiny, font. That’s not too daunting and they don’t have to read it all in one go. And when people ask you questions, you can refer them to this if you think that an appropriate response at the time.

Yes, you could upload it here, why not?

And yes, for local use, the local monastics could write their own. I think that’s an excellent idea.

Okay, you might feel you were an unknown young nun but I’m afraid that’s not entirely accurate anymore! I know your name, face and rough location!! I know some of your views!

Lol…but I think you are the local nun for your local people…you are not unknown to them.

Besides, why shouldn’t an unknown write it? People will read it for two reasons: the subject matter and it’s not too long!

And as far as such business relates to nuns, nuns must lead the way. This is partly what you want, isn’t it? To not go to monks (most big names are monks)? You want independence. You must take it, be confident in it and communicate this.

I think people will question/demand stuff based on their previous conditioning. Meet them there in that place they know, and present them with an alternative view that is reasonably argued, respects the Buddha and acknowledges their lived experience too. I think the latter point is why some communities might possibly fall flat and lose support. I have seen monastics denigrading the views of their supporters behind their backs and not having the courage to communicate this because of course, such a communication would be Wrong Speech and the supporters wouldn’t come back! But if you can come from a place which first seeks and sees some beauty in what these people say, acknowledge that their experience was real for them and then gently present what you know or what your equally valid experience is…well I think reasonable people will respect that and I think most people have the capacity to be reasonable, if we just trust them a bit first.

Moreover, these conversations don’t mean an immediate turn around. You might find you need to gently and patiently repeat yourself for the rest of your life. But it’ll be worth it because it will make a difference, slowly. The next lot of nuns will feel it though they won’t realise it until you, old and doddering, start making references to how hard it was when you were a young nun and how they’ve got it so easy!! :slight_smile:

Lay people might not agree with you straight away either. But if you communicate gently and persevere and somehow manage to get them to see that Vinaya is important to you, your faith in the Triple Gem is sound and that you’re a deeply committed renunciant, they won’t stop supporting you. I’m sure of it.

Of course I am speaking in generalities. You know your lay extended family best! These are just some thoughts for you to mull over; to perhaps have conversations amongst your sisters first. Slowly begin to broach a few of your supporters. Test the waters. Put a few feelers out. Go slowly with it. Rushing won’t help matters such as this. Indeed, perhaps don’t even think about these things for a while, put them to the back of your mind and leave them be for a few months…see what life presents you in the meantime…you might find that just having this conversation, just opening to this possibility, will make you see opportunites to move forward that you didn’t previously see.

I’ve seen little pamphlets or booklets about meditation and general Buddhism left in areas where people can just grab them freely…and grab them they do! Sometimes there have even been signs saying, “For Free Distribution”. Unfortunately, most flyers about monastics have been about the more mundane things - like what clothes you wear in a temple and the like. I’m not denigrating this, whatever works for different groups. But I think laypeople would be interested in more than that.

I can see such works targeting two broad audiences. The non-traditonal Buddhist, just new to the whole thing and the traditional Buddhist. Both will benefit. Often non-traditonals are nervous and find things very strange and want to know more so that they can feel comfortable and not embarrass themselves. This is what people tell me. And traditionals, from what I’ve observed, feel that their faith, their Practice and their love for (however they see) Buddhism is validated because you’re taking them seriously enough to explain some serious things. People can get on such high horses in their attitude to traditional Buddhists, but among them are serious Practitioners as well as the non-practicing ones. But it’s both you want to contact respectfully and some will be supporters who are also Practitioners - the type of support they offer will be deeper; and others will still have the potential to see the reasonableness in what you’re saying and stick around too and whether they believe it or not, it will gladden them to help out kind nuns. :slight_smile:

Just to finish off, I’ll relate a little story about a quiet little group of Thai women I’ve observed over the years. This little group heads off to the monks’ monastery on a regular basis. They’ve been doing this for years. Perhaps not all together and all of the time…but you get the idea. They’re regular supporters.

When the '09 ordinations happened, I think initially, the Thai community didn’t know what to make of it all. And it’s a large community within our overall much larger one (we’re very multicultural and we all love and accept that!). But they were not left out of the loop. Communication happened. Now it’s 2017 and they’re as strong a support base as ever.

And that group of ladies? Well they now also go up to see the nuns regularly. And they have broadened their dana giving to include lay retreats. And some of them keep 8 precepts together, every weekend. And they’re really into meditation.

People have the capacity to change and they want to be kind. You just have to believe in them too; see this in them and talk to this part of them.

Anyway, hope this helps and is not too overwhelming. Just leave it aside for a while if it is! There’s no wild hurry and of course, only use what’s good for you.

Much metta and anjali :pray:t6:

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Can I just add, as an outsider just starting to look at Buddhism and the EBTs, that I see online a lot of general Dhamma talks, some guided meditations and some Sutta talks, then I see some courses around specific categories like the Karma & Rebirth course, but I have yet to see talks woven around the Vinaya. So these talks online are given at a local level and I’m presuming that they reflect what is taught at a local level. Is it possible for monastics to do talks specifically around Vinaya?

For example, earlier in this thread @vimalanyani suggested that some of the specific nuns rules were quite beautiful. Surely a topic such as that could be made into lovely talk?

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This is just one example of a talk on Vinaya matters:

“How the Sangha works” by Bhante Sujato. I love it!
:star_struck:

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And here’s another one:

“Vinaya for monks and nuns: What do laypeople need to know about it?” by Ajahn Brahmali

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