In the suttas, we see Saḷāyatana and Indriya (six elements like eye, ear, etc.) discussed in different places. I am just curious whether there are any differences between the two?
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@Sudheera Can you provide sutta references? That would make it easier to dissect the meaning.
I think I learned that salayatana refers to the six senses and their objects whereas indiriya can be related to controlling or dealing with the senses. It’s a skill or faculty. I’m by no means an expert on this - just posting here becuz no one else has so far. I’d be interested in a more erudite answer, too.
Probably only way of using the terms. Example on
SN 35.154 it used indriya
Mendicant, if someone meditates observing rise and fall in the eye faculty, they grow disillusioned with the eye faculty.
“Cakkhundriye ce, bhikkhu, udayabbayānupassī viharanto cakkhundriye nibbindati …pe…If they meditate observing rise and fall in the ear faculty … nose faculty … tongue faculty … body faculty …
jivhindriye ce, bhikkhu, udayabbayānupassī viharanto jivhindriye nibbindati …pe…mind faculty, they grow disillusioned with the mind faculty.
manindriye ce, bhikkhu, udayabbayānupassī viharanto manindriye nibbindati.
But in SN 12.2 it used salayatana for DO.
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Unfortunately, I couldn’t find any suttas that point out the differences.
Thanks for picking this SN 35.154 for indriya. I still have no idea about the difference, though.
The Yamakavagga in the SN separates out the inner and outer salayatana. Indriya refers to the inner ayatana, or sense power/faculty and visaya refers to the outer ayatana, or sense field.
Can you please refer specific sutta there Yamakavagga? Cuz what I find most of them are refering to “gratification, the drawback, and the escape.”
For me, no differences for now. It got to do with establishing Sati and Samadhi by let go the 5 senses here and now.
Also it has to do with 5 senses restraint aka (kama).
When the mind let go 5 senses, the Sati is established as SN 48.42 said. Sati established, samadhi will establish as well, then freedom.
The indriyas are your interfaces/points of contact with the world around you i.e. the five senses and their respective organs forming five pairs (eye & sight, tongue and taste, nose and smell, ears and hearing, skin and touch). These are called the pañcendriyas (pañca-indriya = five indriyas).
The ṣaḍ-āyatanas (or the six bases of cognition) include the mind as a sixth in addition to the five indriyas. Āyatana means a base, a receptable (of the sensory inputs). ṣaḍ means six.
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You can look at the Salayatana in the SN and see that the suttas frequently separate inner and outer salayatana and list what they are: eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind (inner) and sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, phenomena (outer).
From the beginning, one suttas list the inner … with reference to some thing, the next sutta lists the outer with reference to the same thing. Then he begins to develop his teaching on the salayatana further.
So, as per your explanation, ṣaḍ-āyatanas includes the mind as another indriya. To me, it seems like they’re being mixed up
No. The sixth is manas and dhamma, with manas being the inner ayatana and dhamma being the outer ayatana. You need to know the six ayatana of contact as well, among other things, not to get lost.
@Meggers
Sorry still confused.
The subject question is to find out the difference between Saḷāyatana and Indriya. So, do you mean to say that inner ayatana are called Indriya and outer ones are Saḷāyatana?
So in that sesnse for instance, eye is inner or outer?
| Power (indriya) | Field (viṣaya) | Inner Dwelling Place of Sense (ajjhattikāni āyatana) | Outer Dwelling Place of Sense (bāhirāni āyatana) | Sense Consciousness (viññāṇakāyā) |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| cakkhuṁ (eye) | rūpā (sights) | cakkhāyatanaṁ (eye) | rūpāyatanaṁ (sights) | cakkhuviññāṇaṁ (eye consciousness) |
| sotaṁ (ear) | saddā (sounds) | sotāyatanaṁ (ear) | saddāyatanaṁ (sounds) | sotaviññāṇaṁ (ear consciousness) |
| ghānaṁ (nose) | gandhā (smells) | ghānāyatanaṁ (nose) | gandhāyatanaṁ (smells) | ghānaviññāṇaṁ (nose consciousness) |
| jivhā (tongue) | rasā (tastes) | jivhāyatanaṁ (tongue) | rasāyatanaṁ (tastes) | jivhāviññāṇaṁ (tongue consciousness) |
| kāyo (body) | phoṭṭhabbā (touches) | kāyāyatanaṁ (body) | phoṭṭhabbāyatanaṁ (touches) | kāyaviññāṇaṁ (body consciousness) |
| mano (mind) | dhammā (phenomena) | manāyatanaṁ (mind) | dhammāyatanaṁ (phenomena) | manoviññāṇaṁ (mind consciousness) |
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Salayatana is dependent on nama-rupa whereas the indriya not necessarily.
“What’s the difference between someone who has passed away and a mendicant who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling?
“Yvāyaṁ, āvuso, mato kālaṅkato, yo cāyaṁ bhikkhu saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ samāpanno—imesaṁ kiṁ nānākaraṇan”ti?
“When someone dies, their physical, verbal, and mental processes have ceased and stilled; their vitality is spent; their warmth is dissipated; and their faculties have disintegrated.
“Yvāyaṁ, āvuso, mato kālaṅkato tassa kāyasaṅkhārā niruddhā paṭippassaddhā, vacīsaṅkhārā niruddhā paṭippassaddhā, cittasaṅkhārā niruddhā paṭippassaddhā, āyu parikkhīṇo, usmā vūpasantā, indriyāni paribhinnāni.
When a mendicant has attained the cessation of perception and feeling, their physical, verbal, and mental processes have ceased and stilled. But their vitality is not spent; their warmth is not dissipated; and their faculties are very clear.
Yo cāyaṁ bhikkhu saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ samāpanno tassapi kāyasaṅkhārā niruddhā paṭippassaddhā, vacīsaṅkhārā niruddhā paṭippassaddhā, cittasaṅkhārā niruddhā paṭippassaddhā, āyu na parikkhīṇo, usmā avūpasantā, indriyāni vippasannāni.
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Can you please forward the source for this information?
Which Sutta is this?
So then can we say mendicant who has attained arahanth has ONLY cakkhuṁ (indriya) but NOT cakkhāyatanaṁ (āyatana)
Hi Sudheera,
I already indicated to you that the information is available in the Salayatanavagga of the SN. The chart is mine.
The indriya (power) is the same as the inner ayatana. People also call these faculties and take them to refer to the sense organs.
The visaya (field) is the same as the outer ayatana.
The relation between inner and outer ayatana and consciousness is called contact. You need to know that.
The quoted is from MN43.
It means that as paticcasamuppada is a subset of idappaccayata, salayatana is a subset of indirya.
I’m not quite sure if this sutta or the quoted section in the previous comment explains this. To me, it explains the difference between kālaṅkatō and saññāvēdayitanirōdhaṁ (i.e. someone who has passed away and a mendicant who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling)
I’m not sure how you arrived at below conclusion: