Is there any arahant known nowadays?

Discussion
22

I am not denying that there is a hierarchy of giving, it’s actually right in the Majjhima with a Buddha at the top, and animals at the very bottom.

My point is related to the direct intention of the person giving. If you were to truly give without any expectations, it really wouldn’t matter in the end whether it’s an arahant or a homeless dude on the street. Yes you will get a ton more merit giving to the arahant, but if that is part of your conscious decision making then you are trying to “get” something, hence it being harmful to your mind, and developing the wrong intention of greed, not the right intention of renunciation.

I think Anathapindika is the perfect example for this, his name literally means giver of alms to the poor, and the story goes he was given this name by the people of the city, before he became the greatest benefactor of the Sangha, and even after he became so he still gave to the people of the city to the point of becoming bankrupt himself, so the story goes.

There is a later simile that I don’t believe is in the EBTs, we chant it here at Bhavana sometimes, but it talks about a person who gives to some and not to others is like a local rain cloud, but one who gives to all is like a giant rain cloud that rains down on all beings.

In the end again it’s all about Intention of the giver :

AN 7.49 AN 6.37 Dana Sutta: Giving

what is the reason, why a person gives a gift of a certain sort and it does not bear great fruit or great benefit, whereas another person gives a gift of the same sort and it bears great fruit and great benefit?"
"Sariputta, there is the case where a person gives a gift seeking his own profit, with a mind attached [to the reward], seeking to store up for himself [with the thought], ‘I’ll enjoy this after death.’ He gives his gift
"Then there is the case of a person who gives a gift not seeking his own profit, not with a mind attached [to the reward], not seeking to store up for himself, nor [with the thought], ‘I’ll enjoy this after death.’ Instead, he gives a gift with the thought, ‘Giving is good.’ He gives his gift

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23

Indeed , that’s why most
lay people find it difficult
to understand the dhamma .

Many monks will preach the
merits of Giving to the
Worthy one , without even
explaining or to teach
The Right Intention !
Or any Right dhamma !

So , naturally tending to acquire
merits by offering and observing
5 & 8 precepts is just a way to
accumulate merits for a better
future life or other reason .

In my place where I stay,
hardly for one can listen
to the renouncing dhamma
or proper pure dhamma .
Not mundane dhamma .
What to expect if already
mentioned that the dhamma
is only for the few !

With even many of the monks
from Buddha time until now ,
trying to accumulate more
Money , what do you expect
the lay people will think of ?
Whether they are buddhist
or non buddhist !

At the end of the day ,
Only the lay people
will make offering ,
Whereas , most of them
do not have any depth
in the dhamma.

Can we ask why the Buddha
preach the benefits and
merits of offering to Sangha’s
without teaching the lay
people further dhamma ,
will cause them to
remain ignorant ?!

Is there a competition for
getting the offering from
lay people between Buddha
or buddhism , with other
sects such as jains ,
Samanas , brahmana etc ?!

24

True. I wonder if the Buddha taught about generosity partly to raise the listener’s mind out of stinginess, which is a hindrance to further development. In one case a beggar who is a leper (Suppabuddha) approaches the a crowd thinking someone might be distributing food. It turns out to be a crowd gathered to listen to the Buddha. It turns out that Suppabuddha is the only one capable of understanding the dhamma in that crowd. The Buddha gives a graduated talk (anupubbiya kata) starting with generosity and ending at the Four Noble Truths and he becomes a stream entrant. The Buddha proclaims that he has generosity (this poor beggar who doesn’t have anything) among other spiritual faculties- I took this to mean the quality of generosity in the mind is far more important that having riches and being stingy, spiritually speaking.

It is sad the dhamma sermon on dana has become a ‘dana hook’, devaluing its true purpose.

with metta

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25

Becoming a stream entrant implies elimination of the first three fetters: doubt, belief in a permanent self and attachement to rite and rituals. Suppabuddha, possibly due to his particular circumstances, was ready for letting go of these three as soon as he heard the dhamma. Confirmation to me that stream entry is not happening thru meditation activities but thru something different. Each one of us has to find this thing that will make us break the first three fetters.

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26

I think it is listening to someone’s voice.
Ie: Listening to four noble truths through someone.

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27

We have heard and studied the 4NB so many times. Are you saying that hearing it from someone else will make a difference?

28

What I am saying is first step is to hear the Dhamma from someone.
Then you should have the faith to accept it.
Then you practice.
Then you realise it for yourself.

29

This would have to be a Buddha, I think.

Then the Blessed One, having encompassed the awareness of the entire assembly with his awareness, asked himself, “Now who here is capable of understanding the Dhamma?” He saw Suppabuddha the leper sitting in the assembly, and on seeing him the thought occurred to him, “This person here is capable of understanding the Dhamma.” So, aiming at Suppabuddha the leper, he gave a step-by-step talk, i.e., he proclaimed a talk on generosity, on virtue, on heaven; he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensuality, and the rewards of letting go. Ud5.3

But this is not the only way, for example in the satipatthana sutta it says a person will be able to attain stream entry if it is practiced. Another sutta (Yuganaddha sutta) says if tranquility and insight are practiced, the path is born. This path (magga) is the noble eightfold path, which stream entrants posses. The ‘stream’ is the ‘path’.

with metta

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30

Hi SarathW1

Could you give a reference for that Vinaya rule?

I know that FALSELY declaring attainments results in immediate loss of ordination (Parājika: https://suttacentral.net/en/pi-tv-bu-vb-pj4#22). So I guess that if the attainment were true, it would be a minor rule and thus, as a minor rule, would not covered by Ethics (Sīla) but only a ‘bad habit’ if broken and the rule would be dependent on conditions (time and place).

Thus, it would seem to me, in a time when Arahants were thought to not exist, or were very rare, it would seem compassionate to declare it, just at the Buddha did.

Best wishes

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31

I disagree, unless one were a noble one. I think it would be quite easy then, as one would understand the essence of the Dhamma (what was Dhamma and what was not Dhamma). Before that one could quite easily misjudge, due to Wrong View.

Best wishes

32

I totally disagree re five precepts and Vinaya rules. I agree that a noble one could tell if someone else was PROBABLY Arahant, by the way they taught Dhamma.

33

Dear Sir, I certainly disagree. What you said seems to me to be a very negative assumption of the motivation of others. I don’t think that has to be the motivation at all. The motivation doesn’t have to be to get something for oneself, but to have the most benefit to society at large. I think of it as a wise investment of time/energy. I don’t think the Buddha would approve of foolish investments, such as donating money to a drunkard.

At the same time, I would encourage general generosity (liberality) to those who need help, as the Buddha did, vis supporting Jains or any ascetic, not just his disciples. Giving clothing to a drunkard or homeless person in the cold might be a wiser investment than donating money.

best wishes

34

There were a certain amount of time may be years after the Buddha started teaching and the Vinaya rules were established in the state we have them today. During that time it was clearly known who was an Arahat, a non-returner, etc. The Buddha keeps telling I’m an Arahat and shouting his lion’s roar.
This is a real shame that today we have to guess and because we have no way of confirming it we assume that someone who has been a monastic for that long must at least be blah blah blah.
Why is it a shame? Because only Arya should teach the dhamma.
But not everything is lost because we don’t have to take refuge in the Sangha we only have to take refuge in ourselves first and then in the dhamma.

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35

Falsely claiming is a Pārājika, telling even if true is a Pācittiya(#8)

https://suttacentral.net/en/pi-tv-bu-vb-pc8

Some said, “There’s no need to do work for the householders, nor to take messages for them. Let’s instead praise one another’s superhuman qualities to the householders, ‘Such a monk has the first absorption, such a monk the second absorption, such a monk the third, such a monk the fourth; such a monk is a stream-enterer, such a monk a once-returner, such a non-returner, such a perfected one; such a monk has the three true insights, and such the six direct knowledges.’ Then they’ll give to us. In this way we’ll be united and in harmony, and we’ll spend the rains in comfort and have no problems getting almsfood. Indeed, this is the better way, that we praise one another’s superhuman qualities to the householders.”

Then they praised each other’s superhuman qualities to the householders, “Such a monk has the first absorption … such a monk has the six direct knowledges.” And those people thought, “We’re fortunate that such monks have come to us for the rains. Such monks as these, who are virtuous and of good character, have never before entered the rains with us.” And they gave such food and drink to those monks that they did not even eat and drink themselves, or give to their parents, to their wives and children, to their slaves, servants, and workers, to their friends and companions, or to their relatives. In this way those monks became handsome, with rounded features, bright faces, and clear skin.

‘If a monk truthfully informs a person who is not fully ordained of a superhuman quality, he commits an offense entailing confession.’”

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36

This seems to contradict words of the Buddha from AN 7.52, where giving with such intention clearly doesn’t count as demeritorius act. Although it’s true it’s not the type of giving which might bear best fruit. But don’t we all walk the same gradual path?

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37

I’m not sure if you missed my post above, but for reference sake:

This same statement is in the one you provided and it’s pretty clear the importance of the intention in the persons mind, Now on to the Sutta you have provided, which I don’t believe I’ve ever read(im in the book of 6s in AN currently of my first read through) , but which has some irrefutable proof that really surprises me :

“Lord, what is the cause, what is the reason, why a person gives a gift of a certain sort and it does not bear great fruit or great benefit, whereas another person gives a gift of the same sort and it bears great fruit and great benefit?”

“Sariputta, there is the case where a person gives a gift seeking his own profit, with a mind attached [to the reward], seeking to store up for himself [with the thought], ‘I’ll enjoy this after death.’ He gives his gift—food, drink, clothing, a vehicle; a garland, perfume, & ointment; bedding, shelter, & a lamp—to a brahman or a contemplative. What do you think, Sariputta? Might a person give such a gift as this?”

“Yes, lord.”

“Having given this gift seeking his own profit—with a mind attached [to the reward], seeking to store up for himself, [with the thought], ‘I’ll enjoy this after death’—on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Four Great Kings. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.

So even if you are giving with unskillful/unwholesome intentions, it still counts as Deva realm level merit(that sounds like pretty good fruit for me, even though buddha lists it as not, but for sure its a lower level deva realm). Definitely not something I’ve read before or expected. I suppose it goes to show the power of giving, regardless of your intention, a bit confusing to me and something I’ll have to ponder and integrate.

but in the end with this pretty clear evidence, I’ll have to take back my original statement, thanks for the on point sutta reference.

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38

Yes, I agree on both counts.

Bh. Sujato has said that taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and Bhikkhu-sangha is ‘standard’ in the EBTs and for me that’s an example of ‘early Buddhism’ that’s against the Buddha’s teaching.

39

Dear Sir, thanks for that. I recall that now and it is as I suspected, a minor rule.

Since I understand sīla for Bhikkhus to encompass only the Pārājikā and Saṅghadisesā and someone at Stream Enterer Fruit or above would have perfect sīla, then, for me, noble ones would declare themselves as such, out of compassion, in times when people needed it, just like the Buddha did and the rule would not apply.

best wishes

40

Dear Sir, well said, imo!

Though I have not yet seen you address my point of your seemingly negative assumption that, someone seeking an Arahant to give, would be seeking great merit for himself and that is relevant to the sutta you quoted. Such that, if one were not seeking one’s own benefit (merit), but the greater benefit of society, then it is in no way blameworthy, but in fact laudable.

best wishes

41

Hi Alaber

This is what I often heard in the traditional Theravada setting, but/and it does not distinguish if it is SE path or SE fruit spoken of. In many places I read, the fruit of SE is unshakable faith in the Triple Gem (not taking refuge in it) and unbroken morality/ethics (sīla).

To me, the traditional view also does not present a ‘gradual path’. The implication I always got was, they are all eradicated at one time. My indepth studies have shown the three are eradicated gradually and each stage matches various names given to the SE. You can see details in my study of consistent EBTs on the topic: (PDF) Comparative Analysis of the Qualities of the Sāvaka-saṅgha/Ariya-sāvaka in the Suttas - excerpt from thesis | Joe Smith - Academia.edu

best wishes