I’ve heard somewhere(sadly I don’t remember where) that Tushita heaven is located in formless realm above form realms, also that it is actually above desire realms. Can it be true? Because I have usually read that, it is located above Yama heaven(gods without conflict) and below heaven of nirmirati gods(gods who create whatever they wish), essentially in desire realm. Can anyone mention some related sutta from suttapitaka if there any, which hints towards this? Thank you!
I don’t remember in the scriptures there is any mention of the location of the heavens.
As far as I know, Tusita heaven belongs to the sense world, so it is unlikely that it is located in the formless realm.
It’s the desire realm heaven above the Yama heaven:
- Four god kings
- Trayastrimsa heaven
- Yama heaven
- Tuṣita heaven
- Nirmāṇarati heaven
- Paranirmitavaśavartin heaven
You may be thinking of the Śuddhâvāsa heavens above the Brahma heavens where non-returners are born as gods.
Nono I am not talking about pure abodes.
I have one argument. Take for example our realm of humans, here we have beings who are experiencing all types of heavenly/hell states, not exactly but similar to these worlds. There are humans who experience heavenly life(life of much happiness), while there are those who experience hell(life with very much problems), there are even those who are renunciates, who live on mental happinesses. So can we say that, let’s say for example in tushita heaven, beings who live of mental happiness, can exist? I mean who are renunciates there!? I know, knowing this is pointless but still I wish to know if such thing is possible.
Once you start saying that the realms are metaphorical, then you are no longer grounded in anything. One can come up with innumerable different conjectures. You are free to do that, but it will no longer be connected with anything you can say for sure.
No I ain’t saying realms are metaphorical, saying that would be evident of having narrow perspective without possibilities of development. I just want to know if even in those higher realms can beings of different preferences exist, I mean in their scale, not on our scale. It’s like our scale starts from 1-2-3 & maybe their scale starts from 1000-2000-3000, if you know what I mean. Like human with lowest morality would live like a begger(just supposing) who can barely live. So can it be possible if lowest of being in heaven can only enjoy what he/she is entitled to, while whether higher ones can renounce pleasures there as well, to live on mental happiness like that of higher brahma beings.
I can’t think of any detailed descriptions of the Tusita gods offhand, but it plays a major role in the bodhisattva stories. A bodhisattva spends his last life before being born on earth to become a Buddha in the Tusita heaven. So, it’s in bodhisattva related sutras and avadanas that I’ve seen the most descriptions of that heaven, myself.
Yea avdanas related to Bodhisattva only usually have mention of Tushita heaven. Can you mention any names of such sutta plz, if you can.
No it’s not located in the formless plane
Yes I have read that, everywhere it’s mentioned in desire realm only, but I was wondering if there are any other perspectives regarding it.
Although humans live in sensual realm, internally our mind can stay in any mental state such as hellish state, or a very blissful heavenly state. This is just a mental state, which may correspond to certain external realm, including formless realm, but not real realm itself. Same with beings in tushita heaven or other heavens, they can choose to stay in a hellish state if they choose to. The residing of certain internal state may generate enough kamma then the being may reborn into that corresponding realm next life.
No it is not. It’s not even in jhanaloka. You only understand how powerful Brahmas are if you understand how powerful and blissful some devas are. And they haven’t even unlocked jhana and brahmahood. Devas in tusita are basically high on heroin and cocaine all the time. And only if you can control this overwhelming sensation you could develop the power of creation. Devas in tavatimsa live like kings they have a harem of 500 nymph apsaras in this level. In the 1st heaven you never have to work your entire life and there’s almost no violence and conflict even in the first heaven. While the human world is always about competition. Heaven is about abundance. In Yama heaven you develop superpowers like flight.
I think this is partially truth. Based on ajahn punnadhammo’s book about buddhist cosmology this heroin like stuff and all actually is found in heaven of thirty-three, because it is said to be epitome of all the ‘kinds’ of happinesses found in human realm. Pleasures in heavens above heaven of thirty-three are actually almost unimaginable for us.
Furthermore wisdom is protected in tushita heaven. Hence saying that gods there are basically high on drugs would not be correct I think. Well pleasure experience there by Beings there cannot be compared to heroin and alike stuff. Beings/gods in tushita are characterized by ‘satisfaction’. Pleasure is perfect there…dhamma practice is not abandoned there. That’s why it is called heaven of Tushita, where Tushita means satisfaction. Dhamma is not abandoned hence many Bodhisattvas dwells there.
Yes of course I only said that so people will have an easier time to relate to the suttas. You have to understand that the Buddha lived in 500 BC. And some old monks talk like we’re still in the early iron age. My point is that the teaching of the Buddha will always be relevant. No matter how advanced our technology is. I also have to say that most people can’t even tell apart science and pseudo science. Nor do they care about the truth.
Even devas in Yama heaven are not equal with the devas in tavatimsa. There are huge differences between each levels of heaven. I don’t think that devas in tusita needed to take any drugs to experience the overwhelming sensations of tusita. They experience it because of their own karma. But to make people relate to this story, the easiest comparison would be as if someone is high on heroin. Since heroin is considered a hard drug.
I hope I have cleared our misunderstanding. Namaste.
Devas in tavatimsa are bombarded with beautiful girls. Devas in Yama heaven are bombarded with powers. Devas in tusita are bombarded with pure ecstasy. To become a creator you have to subdue and control these pure and overwhelming ecstasy sensation. That is my interpretation of the suttas.
Yes. Your interpretation is right…but I would say ecstasy can be found in tavatimsa as well. Certain high amount of power can be found there as well. And beautiful girls/nymphs are found in tushita as well. Also creation is possible along with all the sensations. 2 heavens above Tushita heaven…the heaven of nirmirati gods(gods who enjoy creating objects pleasing to senses) and above it the heaven of parinirmirati gods(gods who use creation of others in any way they want) amounts to creation along with ecstacy and all.
I would suggest you to read cosmology book by ajahn punnadhammo which I shared on other thread. It has all the description of all the heavens and even hells, what kind of life they live, their tremendously long lives, how they live, how they die, even how happily they die, what they do…almost everything including what kind of karma they did to attain that birth!. He has collected everything from various sutras from tipitaka/Pali canon and assembled it in one book. Really a very beautiful read. You will be amazed 1000%.
This below article is also by venerable ajahn punnadhammo. You can take a look. You will get idea about that cosmology book.
I don’t think that’s what the suttas say. Sakka the ruler of tavatimsa probably originated from Yama heaven. Yama heaven dwellers are said living in the air free from all difficulties. Devas in tusita have no time anymore to think about girls since they’re probably unconscious all the time. The devas in parinirmirati basically have the ability to hijack anything created by the devas in nirmirati. I don’t know how your logic goes but beings don’t lose the powers or bliss or pleasure of the lower realms as they go up in rank. For example devas in Yama heaven could visit apsaras if they wanted to and do anything with the apsaras.
He is said to attained spontaneous birth after fulfilling of 7 vows in many many births. There is elaborate version of his last birth before birth as sakka. He was named as magha in his last birth then took birth as magha. You can search about them…7 vows of sakka.
That maybe one of their characteristics, but loving in air without difficulty is also found as characteristic of heaven of four kings which is below tavatimsa. Yama heaven is chiefly characterized by absense of strifes/fights/war…as sakka is many times engaged in war with asuras.
Yes they don’t always keep thinking about girls but they are available as visuals/surroundings pleasing to eye for them.
Also saying that they are unconscious all the time…would be very misleading and implies wrong thing. The word unconscious is very limited/rudimentary word. when we fall unconscious it cannot be linked to any kind of pleasure/happiness. Instead we can say their all the sensual desires are satisfied and live very pure lives compared to all the below and above sense realms. Tushita is said to be the most beautiful of all the sensual heavens… incomparable.
No it’s not hijack, they actually are able to use those created forms in very different way other than enjoying it themselves.
All I am saying is that they don’t lose lower powers and bliss instead they become more refined. It’s like earlier I used to enjoy playing with toys but now I enjoy movies. Something like that. I think you haven’t yet checked out that link of article I shared with you above. If you had gone through it you would definitely understand this logic I m trying to convey.
Haha yes they can but they have their own things like apsaras and all and they don’t need to do that.
I have read following text somewhere I don’t remember but it is worth.
**Chaturmaharajika gods(heaven of four kings)
- by generosity and morality of higher degree, one feels repugnance(disgust) for domestic things, loves to hear dharma and honours worthy people and hence as a result born here.
Trayatimsa heaven(heaven of 33)
- by generosity, morality and honouring ones mother and father, revering them and passionately seeking supremacy one is born here.
Yamaloka (realm of Yama gods)
- by observing generosity and morality, one loves to learn dhamma, whose mind is gentle, doens’t like conflict is born in Yama heaven.
Tushita devloka (realm of content gods)
- by pure generousity and pure morality and by developing these qualities further, one who loves learning dhamma, one who is bahushruta(knowing much of dhamma)(dhammadhara), discriminates what is right and what is wrong, desires liberation/nirvana above all, who is intensely attached to virtue(qualities of lord buddha), such a noble person is born in tushita heaven.
Nirmanarati God realm(gods enjoying creation of whatever they desire)
- by being very highly generous, magnanimous(one who is kind, generous, forgiving), highly moral, erudite(one having great knowledge of dhamma which is based on careful study), dhammadhara, one who loves to learn and earn his living by himself(by his own strength), such a person is born in the heavenly realm of nirmirati gods who enjoy creation of their desire.
Parinirmitavasavartin heavenly realm(gods who enjoy having control of other’s creation)
- one when he gives, shows deepening pure morality, he loves erudition(having great knowledge of dhamma which is based on careful study), considers himself spiritual person(sattva), unable to undergo suffering he/she seeks satisfaction from someone else(para), such a person is born among heaven of paranirmitavasavartin gods(gods using desirable objects created by others in sovereign manner). These god’s use objects ingeniously(in cleaver and innocent manner)created by others in sovereign manner. They are like destitute people who fight over a patrimony.
Finally, it is as a result of a wish, aspiration(praṇidhāna) formulated at the moment of the gift that one is reborn in the paradises.
[Dānupapattisutta]– Thus it is said in a sūtra: A man cultivates a little bit of generosity and morality but is ignorant of the existence of the dhyānas and the absorptions (samāpatti). Learning of the existence of the Cāturmahārājika gods, he mentally makes them [the object] of his aspirations (cetaḥpraṇidhi). The Buddha has said: “At the end of his life, this man will be reborn among the Caturmahārājika gods: that is absolutely certain.” It is the same [in regard to rebirth among the other gods of kāmadhātu] up to and including the Paranirmitavaśavartin gods.**
Well I saw Jesse Pinkman and his girl become unconscious after shooting heroin. And AFAIK apsaras don’t live in Yama heaven. Devis do since they’re female devas, but no Apsara lives in Yama heaven. If Yama devas feel naughty they need to come down to tavatimsa. So nimmanarati is less beautiful than tusita? How does that logic go? But I 100% agree that the heavens are for generous people, not people who became monks for respect and money. Or people who are fake and are lying hypocrites.
Nono…don’t misunderstand me. It is not ‘less beautiful’ literally. If you go by literal meaning of words then higher heaven is more beautiful than lower. But Tushita is said to be most beautiful because, lifespan is tremendously long, but it is not unimaginably long like in nirmirati and parinirmirati heaven. (In tushita 400 years of humans is one day for them and they live about 4000 of such years!!!) It is easier to take birth as human beings for Tushita beings during time of dispensation of buddha on earth…unlike heavens above where lifespan is unimaginably long. And the most important reason to call Tushita beautiful is that, good/wholesome karma can be created there by paying respect to great bodhisattvas/mahasattvas there. And beings there do not get lost in samsara… because dhamma is there to guide. Above Tushita only and only unimaginable sensual pleasure remains…which means less opportunity to do merit. In this context tushita is said to be most beautiful.
…at a level (bhūmi) lower than(Tushita heaven) that, the fetters (saṃyojana) are too heavy; in a higher level, they are too light. In the heaven of the Tuṣitas, the fetters are neither too heavy nor too light, for there, wisdom (prajñā) is safe.
Also among the Tuṣita gods, the span of life coincides with the period when Buddhas appear. Hence it is said to be most beautiful in this context. But if you go by the context of only level of sensual pleasure,…then parinirmirati is the highest one.
Yes offcourse! Doing Ten wholesome deeds mentioned in suttas creates causes of rebirth in heaven, and doing ten unwholesome deeds(also mentioned in suttas) takes person to hell.