Isn't joining military or any government service which can force us to inflict pain on other human beings wrong?

Remember those fascists in world war two? They were child abusers and hate mongers, mutilators and torturers against any religious creed. If you don’t at least call the police when someone is threatening your family in any way, where are you to stand? Assailants come with deadly weapons so it is important to use the knowledge of defending oneself and one’s community. The current situation in Ukraine claims at a fascist presence there, and whatever the buildup, Putin has decided to intervene probably on covert intelligence, such world leaders do not act on hearsay or simply principle conduct when so many lives are at stake. And it is a country that borders directly Russia.

The best solution would be for Ukraine is to give a complete surrender. What are they fighting for? Then the true enemy would show it’s face, sort of like ISIS in the Middle East when a country would join the coalition to expel the inward threat and give up harboring terrorists.

I am upset there haven’t seem to have been many talks before the fighting in Ukraine, to get whatever fascist element isolated so Ukraine didn’t have to be attacked. There have been incursions like this in the past.

If someone is threatening your loved one’s with violence, you need more than a peaceful state of mind. Its important to protect our world, and take up arms instead of letting the enemy saw you into pieces and then hurt or kill your family.

Structure, discipline, skill, morality, and justice are all required for a decent military force, so that fighting is towards preventing wars and not prolonging them for tedious objectives. Not peace but a sword, let us hold our peace until the skilled swordfighters save our families, so that the Dhamma can continue on and not be overrun by another group of fascism. Both Russia and Ukraine need our help, taking in Ukrainian refugees is so important, my grandmother is taking in some hopefully, and Peace talks need to fructify fully to end the violence. Om.

russia-ukraine (1)

Teyata Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate Bodhi Soha.

May the other shore of Peace As Soon As Possible Be Reached, for the sake of the Sangha.

I see the dilemma. I think this dilemma is always there for a householder with so many worldly concerns. There is so much to protect. All kinds of posessions for example. A family, a company, a job, a house, a banc account, a car etc etc. There is al lot “this is mine” in the household life. Very much. It must all be protected.

But exactly for this reason the Buddha says, i belief, the household life is too dusty. You cannot live the perfect holy life when one has all kinds of wordly concerns and possessions to protect.

I think this is true. It is not realistisch to think one can live the completely pure holy life when one has all kinds of interests.

According laws of kamma, deeds based on violence, hate, agression, can never have good results, even when the results in this life seem good. That is, i belief, an important aspect of Buddha-Dhamma.
I have not seen any text which teaches that thoughts, speech and deeds rooted in lobha, dosa and moha can work out in a wholesome, wished for, good way. This kammic perspective on life is not present in worldly affairs, worldly consideration, worldly interest, worldly motives.
This is called wrong view. In these kind of affairs you can also see how important it is to embrace all aspect of Buddha-Dhamma (including kamma and re-birth).

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Bear in mind that conditional has more than one meaning. The writer you have responded to glossed their statement with a description of the Buddhist view of conditionality. It helps me to follow the rest of the posts in this thread if I bear t that description in mind.

:pray:

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You provide very good examples. I wish, however, Buddhists turned also to the Bhagavad Gita which talks of fighting on Spiritual Principles. Running away to blindly fight because one hates materialism ends in catastrophe, but saving a nation and the dynasties that maintain society can be quite important. Nonviolence is not pacifism, not checking anyone’s Spiritual Progress is true non-violence. I personally like ninja-stars made of energy, but when I throw them at people they don’t hurt, even if they send someone to their next life, the purpose is using one’s compassion for defense, never for attacking other sentient beings. There is no purpose in Spiritual Life outside of the Love we have for each other, so I believe it is good to know some Pure Mantras and uses of Spiritual Energy to protect that Love. Namaste.

I never read Bhagavad Gita. Maybe some day.

I am not so sure about all these morals or principles we discuss, yet.

I know what the Buddha advices in the sutta’s but i feel that is also the perspective, the guidance, the instruction for people aiming at Nibbana, the end of re-birth. A parent with his children has other concerns.

Is anger always wrong? I do not think so. It can also be a wake-up call for other people. A learning experience, opening, good experience for someone. I do not promote anger.

In general i see two ways:

  1. one thinks it is the best for everybody to be always very thoughtful, strategic. Calculating every thought, every speech, every act before doing. This is extremely self-and other-self aware.

  2. one thinks that it is the best to just be spontaneous. Trust in your own natural spontaneous behaviour. Therein lies your goodness. The more calculating you become, the more inapropriate your speech and deeds. Teachers in the style of mahamudra such as Tilopa, teach one does not have to become to artifical, and rational. A person of the head.

I am somewhere in between. But i feel, being so thoughtful and calculating is surely not the same as being pure and also does not end suffering. It also does not create a nice environment to live in when everybody is so strategic al the time. One also needs some spontaneity. Life can not all the time be business. That is also dukkha.

When practicing buddhism also becomes only business, i feel it contributes to dukkha.

The Buddha mind is hard to fathom. It’s like staring at a crystal that came from the earth and imagining “Oh, what this Earth must be…!” That is why I find this Path so unique and important, it teaches those who wish to aspire to become One with Nature or the Planet’s Love that there is something even far greater than that, that it all is a part of, and that is where the plea for peace comes in, the plea for peace is given in the assurance of eventual Supreme Perfect Enlightenment for everyone, tranquil extinction and a cessation of suffering in all phenomena. Such Metta is enough to stir the heart in One to Love Others. So the mission of Siddhartha, is already a success.

This book is the opposite of Buddhism. It’s a book in which God tells someone that killing is totally fine because caste system was ordained and because everyone has an eternal soul (so you’re not really killing them, right?).

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It talks about how someone has to fight on religious principles. It does not mention the caste system, the word caste makes me feel sick, it talks about Verna Ashram which is prescribed by Vishnu in the Ancient Vedas by which one can do any work they are attracted to to embetter society. It is something modern Hindus have degraded, and even during the Buddha’s time.

Anyway, do you believe that all beings will eventually become Buddhas? How does the idea that there is no Self but the Soul is Eternally the same one you’ll be having fit into this? There’s quite a lot to explore. Anyway I respect the Divine Theravada perspective and see no problems in it’s solutions to our Spiritual maladies.

This is interesting. Could you share the Sutta that talks about this event?

Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: ‘Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.’ That’s how you should train yourselves.— MN 21

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So this seems to be one of those events that only gets brief mentions here and there and then gets talked about more in later literature.

The person who invaded the Sakyan republic was Pasenadi’s son, Viṭaṭūbha. You can ready about what happened here: Viṭaṭūbha

Basically the Buddha tried a kind of non-violent protest, but it didn’t work. The Sakyans were slaughtered.

Edit, here’s the entry, its from The Dictionary of Pali Proper Names by G.P. Malalasekera:

v.l. Viḍūḍabha.– Son of Pasenadi and Vāsabhakhattiyā. On the birth of Viḍūḍabha, the king, glad at having a son, sent word to his own grandmother asking her to choose a name. The minister who delivered the message was deaf, and when the grandmother spoke of Vāsabhakhattiyā as being dear to the king, mistook “vallabha” for “Viḍūḍabha,” and, thinking that this was an old family name, bestowed it on the prince. When the boy was quite young, Pasenadi conferred on him the rank of general (senāpati), thinking that this would please the Buddha

When Viḍūḍabha was seven years old, he wished to visit his maternal grandparents, hoping to be given presents, like his companions by theirs, but Vāsabhakhattiyā persuaded him against this, telling him that they lived too far away. However, he continued to express this desire, and when he reached the age of sixteen she consented to his going. Thereupon, accompanied by a large retinue, he set out for Kapilavatthu. The Sākyā sent all the younger princes away, there being thus none to pay obeisance to him in answer to his salute, the remaining ones being older than he. He was shown every hospitality and stayed for several days. On the day of his departure, one of his retinue overheard a contemptuous remark passed by a slave woman who was washing, with milk and water, the seat on which Viḍūḍabha had sat. This was reported to him, and, having discovered the deceit which had been practiced on his father, he vowed vengeance on the Sākyā. Pasenadi cut off all honours from Vāsabhakhattiyā and her son, but restored them later, at the Buddha’s suggestion.

After Pasenadi’s death, which was brought about by the treachery of Dīghakārāyana in making Viḍūḍabha king,² Viḍūḍabha remembered his oath, and set out with a large army for Kapilavatthu. The Buddha, aware of this, stood under a tree, with scanty shade, just within the boundaries of the Sakyan kingdom. On the boundary was a banyan which gave deep shade. Viḍūḍabha, seeing the Buddha, asked him to sit under the banyan. “Be not worried,” said the Buddha, “the shade of my kinsmen keeps me cool.” Viḍūḍabha understood and returned home with his army

Three times he marched against the Sākyā and three times he saw the Buddha under the same tree and turned back. The fourth time the Buddha knew that the fate of the Sākyā could not be averted and remained away. In a previous existence they had conspired and thrown poison into a river.

The Sākyā went armed into the battle, but not wishing to kill, they shot their arrows into Viḍūḍabha’s ranks without killing anyone. On this being brought to Viḍūḍabha’s notice, he gave orders that all the Sākyā, with the exception of the followers of the Sakyan Mahānāma, should be slain. The Sākyā stood their ground, some with blades of grass and some with reeds. These were spared, and came to be known as Tiṇasākiyā and Naḷasākiyā respectively.⁴ The others were all killed, even down to the infants. Mahānāma was taken prisoner and went back with Viḍūḍabha, who wished him to share his meal. However, Mahānāma said he wished to bathe, and plunged into a lake with the idea of dying rather than eating with a slave woman’s child. The Nāgā of the lake, however, saved him and took him to the Nāga world. That same night Viḍūḍabha pitched his camp on the dry bed of the Aciravatī. Some of his men lay on the banks, others on the river bed. Some of those who lay on the river bed were not guilty of evil in their past lives, while some who slept on the bank were. Ants appeared on the ground where the sinless ones lay, and they changed their sleeping places. During the night there was a sudden flood, and Viḍūḍabha and those of his retinue who slept in the river-bed were washed into the sea.⁵

Footnotes

¹ It was for the same reason he married Vāsabhakhattiyā; both in the Piyajātika Sutta (M.ii.110) and the Kaṇṇakatthala Sutta (M.ii.127) Viḍūḍabha is spoken of as a general (senāpati).

² For details see Pasenadi.

³ This exposure to the sun gave the Buddha a headache that lasted throughout his life (UdA.265; Ap.i.300).

According to Chinese records, Viḍūḍabha took five hundred Sakyan maidens into his harem, but they refused to submit to him and abused him and his family. He ordered them to be killed, their hands and feet to be cut off, and their bodies thrown into a ditch. The Buddha sent a monk to teach them, and they were reborn after death in heaven. Śakra collected their bones and burnt them (Beal, op.cit. ii.11 f ). The eleventh Pallava of the Avadānakalpalatā has a similar story. Viḍūḍabha killed seventy-seven thousand Sākyā and stole eighty thousand boys and girls. The girls were rude to him, and he ordered their death.

This account is taken from DhA.i.346‑9, 357‑61; but see also J.i.133 and iv.146 f, 151 f.

So it seems the main source here is the *Dhammapada Aṭṭhakathā

However, I will also mention that the event is also known in Northern Buddhist literature (see note 4). Not sure what the source is in the northern tradition though, maybe someone else can speak to it? @cdpatton ?

Also, a Tibetan Buddhist lama I know has mentioned this events various times, so it seems it is well known there too.

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In the abbreviations for DPPN, “Beal” refers to either his translation of the Abhiniskramana or Xuanzang’s travelogue. Since Beal’s translation of XZ’s travelogue had two volumes, his translation of the Abhiniskramana was a single abridged version, and the citation here references “ii.11 f,” I’m guessing Xuanzang is the source. Not sure though - need to track down the last Beal citation before that since the author is using “op.cit” instead of being specific.

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Be careful on accepting bad written things when you don’t even accept the good. In my impression it is against Krishna’s character to steal clothes, but is within His character to play the role of charioteer of Arjuna. Anyway, the purpose of this post is a request, kindly, that you do not slander a Buddha, Krishna, which. many Indians believe Him to be. It’s up to you how you go about the situation but viewing everything from one side can get hefty. Try to look at the perspective in multiple ways. Aum.

I wouldn’t say it’s neither right or wrong, but is it wholesome or unwholesome–killing in any way is not conducive to virtue or any of the factors that lead to liberation, & killing leads to remorse or some other sort of mental problem–a deeper feeling of disconnect, lack of empathy, etc. One only needs to read up PTSD cases in combat veterans & other cases of people who have murdered, to see how it has affected their perception of the world.

Now, I’d also say that the Buddha or at least the Pali reflections say: “All beings are the owners of their actions & inherit its results. All beings are born from such action, companion to such actions, lie supported by these actions & its results will be their home. All actions with intentions, be they skillful or harmful, of such acts they will be the heirs” (Apologies if I remembered this particular translation wrongly)

So with that saying in mind: is it wrong? Well. It’s not wholesome. All beings when ignorant do things that lead them to pleasant or unpleasant states. It’s all on them. It would be ideal if they didn’t do it, but eventually they must reap the results of their actions, even if we never get to see them reap these results, the inescapable law of cause & effect determine this fact that the results of their actions/karma will ripen in time & cause the same amount of pain to themselves that they have inflicted in these actions.

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I don’t think only shooting to wound is practical in a combat situation. Perhaps some would be prepared to violate the first precept in defence of the innocent, but that doesn’t make it right.
The only exception I can think of on the battlefield is to be an unarmed combat medic.

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