It’s a hard job, but someone’s got to do it

The Watercooler
41

[quote=“santa100, post:34, topic:5928, full:true”]
Guess those Buddhists forgot to ask the lab scientists a simple question before taking the psychedelic pills: what do you guys really hope to get out of the experiment? manufacture, market, and sell some “instant enlightenment” pills, sort of like those instant-coffee powders, or instant-ramen noodles? Maybe one nice day, there’ll be TV commercials selling 1st-Jhana pills for $1000, 2nd-Jhana pills for $2000,… up to cessation-of-feeling-perception for $9000. Actually, for those who want to purchase the $9000 “cessation” pills, you might as well give them all your money 'cuz once you get to that level, that would guarantee Arahantship, or at least Non-Return![/quote]

Good analogy. And surprisingly accurate.

Though not using drugs but supposedly based on “science”, I’ve seen several businesses (aka teachers) offering guaranteed (70-95% success-rate) enlightenment / awakening methods. The going rate has been in the range $1000-$1500; some up to $5000. One s/t has to log-in and go through a lot of registration stuff to even get to the point of finding the price; I did that once, aborting the process before the end; then promptly received an email message offering a limited-time $500 discount!

Pay-as-you-go counseling along the same lines goes for ca. $150-$350 per 45 minute session. (If anyone’s interested, I can supply links. :slight_smile: )

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42

[quote=“James, post:21, topic:5928, full:true”]

If you are implying
japanese zen monk ,
then that maybe true, but ,
if it includes other than that ,
I don’t think so . There were
real bhikkhus in China mainland
whom were still practicing zen !
They believes that zen teachings
was transmitted from Gotama .[/quote]

There’s a point there, given the historical continuum dhyana-jhana-chan-zen.

Nearby here there’s a Chinese-American Buddhist organization that regularly sponsors talks by Bhikkhu Bodhi when he’s in town. After a recent talk, I asked one of the organizers how it is that a Chan (Mahayana) group takes an interest in Theravada speakers. He replied that such a distinction doesn’t apply to (at least some) Chinese Buddhism.

Do we, in the West, have a perhaps simplistic view here? (Or do the Chinese tend to resist Western conceptualizations?)

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[quote=“AnagarikaMichael, post:3, topic:5928, full:true”]
…It also might be interesting to have someone like Leigh Brasington involved in an experiment using psychedelics, and on a different day, jhanas, and compare the experiences…[/quote]
On the one hand, I would say look also to research with jhana teachers more traditionally grounded then Leigh. His version, at least in the teaching stages, is clearly of the ‘jhana-lite’ sort; he claims teaching from Ayya Khema (whose talks, writings on jhana-s are far more traditional than his interpretations), and based on the Bucknell-StuartFox-Griffiths brand of ‘sutta-jhana’, which hasn’t held up well to critical analysis. On the other hand, I do know of a least one case of a well-known, well-grounded teacher who participated in such research (with the Davidson group – at Wisconsin), but didn’t deem to mention it much afterwards.

The “meditation”-related research I’ve viewed (a fair amount) has been disappointing – either clearly clouded with confirmational bias, or just otherwise not that consequential. A bit less so that case (“Disentangling the neural mechanisms involved in Hinduism- and Buddhism-related meditations.”, 2014) that used notions from Alexander Wynne’s book (“The Origin of Buddhist Meditation”, 2007).

This study (Disentangling the neural mechanisms involved in Hinduism- and Buddhism-related meditations - PubMed) is “for sale” from the publisher Elsevier, but I came across a pre-publication copy on the internet. From the “Conclusion” (emphasis added):
“.… In particular, consistently with the fundamental role of mindfulness meditation, Buddhism-inspired meditation practices could trigger activation in frontal lobe regions associated with executive attention. On the other hand, Hinduism meditation practices, primarily associated with different levels of absorption, could mainly trigger activations in the posterior temporo-parietal cortex….”
Note that this study did not do any experimentation, but was a statistical “meta-analysis” of other research, clearly setting-out to validate the Wynne hypothesis.

This article (not a study but rather a survey of ideas and a couple of studies) raises a number of interesting points, but also has several problems with less than adequate interpretation of abhidhamma ideas as well as rather haphazardly aligning this with the research literature, and the specific studies treated at length. It could be a good kick-off point for more in-depth discussion, but that would be off-topic here.

44

I’m confused about what these experiments are designed to test, and whether the experimenters even know themselves. Supposedly:

The experiment, which is currently under way, aims to assess whether a transcendental experience makes the leaders more effective and confident in their work and how it alters their religious thinking.

What exactly is a “transcendental experience”?

There are a variety of experiences described in the EBTs that could be classified as in some way “religious”, I suppose, since the Buddha’s teaching gave rise to a religion. There are the Buddha’s (and others’) various reported conversations with Mara, Sakka and other such deities, on the one hand. There are also, on the other hand, the experiences of the meditative attainments: the various level of jhana, or the arupa attainments, or even the attainment of complete liberation in nibbana.

But these these two kinds of experiences are completely different. The first kind is presumably a dramatic and colorful sensory experience where one’s discursive cognitive functions are fully engaged. That’s the kind that psychedelics could possibly induce. The progress through the levels of the second kind of experience, however, involves the diminishing of sensory input and experience, and a kind of “switching off” of the intellect, so that all that is left is some very minimal basis. It’s hard to see how that spiritual discipline would be enhanced by stimulating a psychedelic phantasmagoria.

The sessions will be conducted in a living room-like setting at New York University and Johns Hopkins in Baltimore with two “guides” present. The participants will be given the drug and then spend time lying on a couch, wearing eyeshades and listening to religious music on headphones to augment their inward spiritual journey.

I don’t know about you folks, but when I meditate, I do not listen to music. I am trying to minimize sensory input and let go of sensory experience, reducing it to the barest minimum I am capable of. I would regard the addition of music as a hindrance, not a help.

This all sounds like the experimenters, at least insofar as Buddhism is concerned, are in the grip of the “hippy trippy” distortion of the Buddhist path I talked about before: put on some Ravi Shankar or Donavan music, pop some mushrooms, watch the Grateful Dead movie and attempt to have some very artistic and mind-blowing psychedelic visions a la Carlos Casteneda or something.

45

I certainly agree with this, Dan. Donovan? Man, you’re really dating yourself. :slight_smile: ( We’re about the same age ).

At the end of the day, all of the intersections between neuroscience, jhanas and psychedelics are interesting discussion. But, I’m guessing most of us feel that these issues are perhaps a distraction from the real path of cultivating samadhi. Cultivating Metta; the practices of compassion, joy and equanimity. Studying Dhamma and keeping precepts. Using samadhi to cultivate insight. Lessening our own suffering, (and hopefully, at least in my view) letting go of self and embracing impermanence and dukkha in such a way that I work to help others that need help.

I mention this as I have attended some stuff with Dr. Richie Davidson at UW (where I live). I support a bit his Center for Healthy Minds; the clinicians there are doing great things. But, the real work is the study and the practice, and sometimes I feel I get bogged down in the collateral science and forget to just spend the time sitting on my butt, and doing the real work. :slight_smile:

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46

First time I hear about this drug. Interesting to learn it may cause people to just stop breathing as the brain get endorphin overdose.

In theory in 4th jhana one stops breathing as well right?? :nerd_face:

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47

nope.

surā‧ meraya‧ majja‧
(intoxicating liquor) ( fermented liquor) (an intoxicant)
pamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇī‧sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.

seems to me while sura and meraya are pretty specific, majja covers a more wide variety of things that are “intoxicants” including drinks. Humanity has known the qualities of plant life since WAY before recorded history, I find it hard to imagine that these would NOT be included in the precepts.

as for drugs, it’s quite clear in some scientific literature, or so I’m told by some mental health professionals, that some drugs, especially stuff like lsd/shrooms create what are considered to be “religious experiences”(deemed so due to positive life changing results) and now after many years of stigma, scientists are beginning to study the effects of these things in that regard.

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48

Mental health problems

There is growing evidence that people with serious mental illness, including depression and psychosis, are more likely to use cannabis or have used it for long periods of time in the past. Regular use of the drug has appeared to double the risk of developing a psychotic episode or long-term schizophrenia. However, does cannabis cause depression and schizophrenia or do people with these disorders use it as a medication?

Over the past few years, research has strongly suggested that there is a clear link between early cannabis use and later mental health problems in those with a genetic vulnerability - and that there is a particular issue with the use of cannabis by adolescents.

Depression
A study following 1600 Australian school-children, aged 14 to 15 for seven years, found that while children who use cannabis regularly have a significantly higher risk of depression, the opposite was not the case - children who already suffered from depression were not more likely than anyone else to use cannabis. However, adolescents who used cannabis daily were five times more likely to develop depression and anxiety in later life.

Psychoses - schizophrenia and bipolar disorder
There is now sufficient evidence to show that those who use cannabis particularly at a younger age, such as around the age of 15, have a higher than average risk of developing a psychotic illness, such as schizophrenia or bipolar disorder.
These studies also show that the risk is dose-related. In other words, the more cannabis someone used, the more likely they were to develop a psychotic illness. Furthermore, a study in Australia recently showed that those who used cannabis could develop the illness about 2.70 years earlier than those who did not.

Why should teenagers be particularly vulnerable to the use of cannabis? It is thought that this has something to do with brain development. The brain is still developing in the teenage years – up to the age of around 20, in fact. A massive process of ‘neural pruning’ is going on. This is rather like streamlining a tangled jumble of circuits so they can work more effectively. Any experience, or substance, that affects this process has the potential to produce long-term psychological effects.

It is also known that not everyone who uses cannabis, even at a young age, develops a psychotic illness. The available research shows that those who have a family history of a psychotic illness, or those who have certain characteristics such as schizotypal personality, or possibly have certain types of genes, may increase the risk of developing a psychotic illness following the regular use of strong cannabis.
Cannabis | Royal College of Psychiatrists

with metta

49

Do you have any evidence from the EBTs to show that ‘majja’ referred to any intoxiscants other than alcohol? They would have had marijuana, probably opium, and possibly some other drugs which could be considered intoxicants. Is there any evidence whatsoever than any of those we referred to by the term ‘majja’? I was personally taught that majja very specifically referred to a category of alcoholic drink, even if we may now be unclear of exactly what category.

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50

Do you have any evidence from the EBTs to show that ‘majja’ referred to any intoxiscants other than alcohol?

I’ve not read all of the EBTs in pali, so I’m not sure I could answer that one way or the other. I suppose it is possible that in the EBTs it could ONLY mean alcohol, but this is what I find from the DPR:

majja c
majja: an intoxicant. (nt.)

Majja (nt.) [fr. mad, cp. Vedic mada & madya] 1. intoxicant, intoxicating drink, wine, spirits Vin ;i.205; D iii.62, 63; Sn 398 (+pāna=majjapāna); VvA 73 (=surā ca merayañ ca); Sdhp 267.

  1. drinking place J iv.223 (=pān’ āgāra).
    – pa one who drinks strong drink, a drunkard A iv.261 Sn 400; Pv iv.176 (a˚); ThA 38. – pāna drinking of intoxicating liquors Vv 158; VvA 73; Sdhp 87. – pāyaka=majjapa J ii.192 (a˚). – pāyin=˚pāyaka Sdhp 88 – vikkaya sale of spirits J iv.115.

so going from as I said, Majja appears to directly mean " intoxicants" which alcholic drinks being included.

the vedic root of “mada” is given above, so what is Mada?

  1. intoxication sensual excess, in formula davāya madāya maṇḍanāya (for purposes of sport, excess, personal charm etc. M i.355=A ii.40= Nd1 496=Nd2 540=Pug 21=Dhs 1346, 1348. The commentator’s explns bearing directly or indirectly on this passage distinguish several kinds of mada

It appears to me, as I said above, that you can make a case that majja/mada includes liquid alcoholic beverages, but I don’t think you can make a case that it ONLY means this, as it is clear there is a more general meaning of intoxicants.

I Think what it may come down to is this, are the drugs we think of today as something someone uses “recreationally”, seen at the time of the Buddha as something OTHER then simply medicine? were they actually abused “just for fun”? Knowing human nature I’d tend to believe they were then as now, so to me it makes sense.

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51

My theory is that the phrasing surā‧ meraya‧ majja‧ was back then a list broad enough to capture all things laypeople would use to intoxicate themselves with, lightly or hardly, mostly as part of their social lives and indulgence in the sensual pleasures.

Although some argue that back in the time of Buddha some religious people would make use of things like soma / haoma, I am yet to be pointed any reference to or evidence of Buddha adressing the use of such substances in EBTs by layfolks.

The only likely references to soma I could find are in the context of it being one of the many kinds of (useless) rituals or sacrifices of the brahmins (sammāpāsaṃ, as found in Iti27, Snp2.7, SN3.9, AN4.39, AN8.1). I have just learned that the somaṃ found in SN7.8 is not a reference to soma but a contraction of so imaṁ ! :slightly_smiling_face:

Interestingly, the widespread use of tobacco in the Thai Bhikkhu Sangha nowadays is mostly consequence of this lack of explicit mentioning to the act of smoking as an offense in any of the training rules of the Vinaya.

I wonder whether tobacco and cigarettes were indeed just recently introduced to Southeast Asia or people, including bhikkhus, may have been smoking stuff since the beginning of times.

52

I try not to approach the precepts as a matter of legalism, but as rudimentary pointers and first steps toward a way of life that is wholesome and conducive to liberation. Since inebriation and similar alterations of consciousness are not conducive to mindfulness and heedfulness, I endeavor to avoid them all. If I found out tomorrow that blueberries made one impulsive and heedless, I suppose I would try to avoid them as well - even though I like blueberries.

On tobacco, I was always under the impression that it is native to the Americas and wasn’t introduced into the Eastern Hemisphere until after the European discovery of the Western Hemisphere. Anyway, it’s disappointing to hear its use is common among some Asian bhikkhus since it is unhealthy stuff.

Broadly speaking, it seems to me that the Buddha’s general teaching on what is to be ingested is fairly clear. You take in only what is necessary to the sustenance of life and health, and don’t take in things whose only purpose is sensory entertainment or gratification.

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53

+1. Long gone were the days of those Flower Sniffing monks. What we have nowadays are way more explicit and blatant. It makes one wonders where the hell are all those devas when those naughty monks are doing their acts. But then a little bit of logical deduction explains it all. If it takes just an act of sniffing flower to get the attention of a deva, then it should be obvious that an act of smoking tobacco would attract, say a platoon of devas; smoking weed, a battalion; sniffing coke, a division; watching porn, a corps, etc. Factoring in the number of naughty monks doing all those at the same time, maybe the devas simply ran out of troopers and they decided to give up!

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54

There are many potential benefits to medicinal uses of otherwise psychedelic drugs when used recreationally.

For instance, there is some experimentation going on with using LSD as a possible component in a treatment for schizophrenia.

If the experiment was done in the name of scientific inquiry, and it was not for the sensual enjoyment of the person involved, regardless of it being a monk or not, I really don’t see any problem. Karma is about intention, yes? Perhaps there is vinaya issues related to this for monks, I would not know, but it strikes me to not be a problem, given its context, a scientific study.

Ultimately the merits of the study don’t really matter from a moral perspective. The participants chose to trust the merits of what was being presented to them as a scientific and methodological process of observation.

55

The fact that the study is being conducted for allegedly scientific reasons doesn’t seem all that important to me from a Buddhist perspective. After all, a scientist might have a legitimate scientific interest in seeing how people respond to the killing of small animals, or telling lies, or watching incest porn, and thus design an experimental protocol to test his hypotheses about these activities. But I take it that the sincere Buddhist practitioner would not participate in such experiences.

It seems to me the Buddha encouraged those who had gone forth to practice a life of extremely austere restraint:

It’s only a “middle way” when compared with the even harsher austerities of some Jains and others. The Buddha’s path, as presented in the EBTs, doesn’t seem to rely in any way on indulging or stimulating the imagination to have exotic “visions”. (Although who knows for sure? Maybe all those encounters with devas and such in the late watches of the night were a sought-after effect due to some combination of sleep deprivation and meditative absorption.)

As I said before, the design of this experiment, at least from the media description of it, seems to be based on the crude and indiscriminate notion of a “religious experience” induced by drugs and music, and having something to do with the realm of the fantastic and phantasmagorical.

56

By the way, I saw this on Twitter this morning:

image
image888×639 474 KB

57

There’s this review on Douglas Osto’s book “Altered States: Buddhism and Psychodelic Spirituality in America” by Ronald S. Green:

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58

Thanks. But it’s not much of a review, is it? It is just a summary of the book.

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All of the evidence you have provided gives no reference whatsoever to any non-alcoholic intoxicant. So then why is it that you say it is ‘clear’ that this has a more general meaning? I see absolutely no evidence for that so far.

I might also add that cannabis is bhaṅga in Pāli - I have heard no evidence that bhaṅga, for example, is included under the category majja.

60

Folks this where common sense come to play.
That is why I said in my previous post that rule are for the fool to follow and wise to take decisions.
The Vinaya and precepts are the minimum standard.
We have to go beyond The Vinaya and rules if you want to become an Arahant.