Twitter’s CEO Jack Dorsey did a vipassana retreat

Its a tricky section. I tend to think with mindfulness we ‘create’ aggregates that can observe itself. A bit like a mirror that can see or reflect off itself.

But is there anything in the EBTs that prevents a continuity of consciousness? For example in the EBTs we’re told that eye-consciousness arises in dependence upon eye and form, which I take to mean that seeing depends upon the ability to see, and something to see. So for a normally sighted person in waking hours there will be a continuity of eye-consciousness - what changes is the object of eye-consciousness.
In any case the Abbhidhammic “mind moments” approach doesn’t fit with my experience. I favour an analogue view of consciousness, as opposed to the digital sampling view of mind moments.

I don’t think we can observe consciousness with consciousness, it would be like trying to see the back of your eyeball. IMO what we’re noticing is the objects of consciousness changing, not consciousness itself. In the EBTs consciousness just looks like the basic function of awareness.

Or is sati really just the ability to direct consciousness or attention where we wish to direct it at any one time?

Sankhara gives rise to vinnana, so we know we can intentionally be conscious of phenomena. I think we can also focus and wield that consciousness using the same kind of intention.

The gaps in a stream of hatred is free from hatred.

A present arising of consciousness is observing a previous arising of consciousness.

There’s this well-known pericope:

Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”— “Suffering, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”—“No, venerable sir.” (SN 22.59 and many others)

Another that seems to apply:

Friends, with consciousness that has been born, that has become manifest, an arising is discerned, a vanishing is discerned, an alteration of that which stands is discerned. (SN 22.38)

I think that’s a difficult analogy, as you’re comparing a mental function with a physical organ.

Do you think, then, that consciousness can only be inferred? In the suttas above, or in DN 2, when the Buddha describes insight as follows:

'Suppose there were a beautiful beryl gem of purest water, eight-faceted, well cut, clear, limpid, flawless, endowed with all excellent qualities. And through it there would run a blue, yellow, red, white, or brown thread. A man with keen sight, taking it in his hand, would reflect upon it thus: ‘This is a beautiful beryl gem of purest water, eight faceted, well cut, clear, limpid, flawless, endowed with all excellent qualities. And running through it there is this blue, yellow, red, white, or brown thread.’ In the same way, great king, when his mind is thus concentrated, pure and bright … the bhikkhu directs and inclines it to knowledge and vision and understands thus: ‘This is my body, having material form …. and this is my consciousness, supported by it and bound up with it.’

do you think consciousness is being directly observed or is it being inferred? If it’s being directly observed, what function of the mind is observing it?

If the Higgs-boson, in another 1000 years, had lost all implication and was relegated to the dustbin of history, and if someone read a little about it, might be inclined to think it exists like a rock would. I think we see consciousness, form, feeling, perception and intentions [the five aggregates] in this way. They last less than a second and appear all over the EBTs. Their apparent tendency to last shouldn’t be assumed by what it sounds like when their names are read again.

The Buddha wouldn’t have to ask blatantly obvious questions like ‘Is form, feeling … lasting’ and help digest what the monks have seen and these would have been people capable of reflecting (the dhamma is for intellectual people).

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Before I tried to kill someone there was no anger. After I tried to kill someone there was no anger. When I tried to kill someone there was anger. I therefore thought it advisable to study the genesis of anger and relinquish it. Because if I stayed around in the gaps between anger, there would be no guarantee that I would be safe from that horrible firestorm of destruction. I could stay in the gaps free of anger and idly pass the time. It has been over 50 years since I got that angry. Will I get that angry again? I hope not. And to prevent that, I study the delight that led to anger and work to relinquish it. I do not think it advisable to hide in the gaps free of anger imagining oneself safe.

Can it only do that ?

When the nutriment consciousness is fully understood, name-and-form is fully understood. When name-and-form is fully understood, I say, there is nothing further that a noble disciple needs to do
SN12.63

Method in the Abhidhamma is simply a detailed instruction on cittanupassana. I am not aware of any teacher instructing, if we understand abhidhamma we become enlightened. It is an extremely focused way of developing dispassion towards the consciousness aggregate.

Hiding doesn’t work. The kind of thought processes that lead to that anger must be changed.

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“Bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling might experience revulsion towards this body composed of the four great elements; he might become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. For what reason? Because growth and decline is seen in this body composed of the four great elements, it is seen being taken up and laid aside. Therefore the uninstructed worldling might experience revulsion towards this body composed of the four great elements; he might become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it.

“But, bhikkhus, as to that which is called ‘mind’ and ‘mentality’ and ‘consciousness’ —the uninstructed worldling is unable to experience revulsion towards it, unable to become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. For what reason? Because for a long time this has been held to by him, appropriated, and grasped thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self.’ Therefore the uninstructed worldling is unable to experience revulsion towards it, unable to become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it.

“It would be better, bhikkhus, for the uninstructed worldling to take as self this body composed of the four great elements rather than the mind. For what reason? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for one year, for two years, for three, four, five, or ten years, for twenty, thirty, forty, or fifty years, for a hundred years, or even longer. But that which is called ‘mind’ and ‘mentality’ and ‘consciousness’ arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night. Just as a monkey roaming through a forest grabs hold of one branch, lets that go and grabs another, then lets that go and grabs still another, so too that which is called ‘mind’ and ‘mentality’ and ‘consciousness’ arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night.
SN12.61

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I didn’t say abide forever did I? And I didn’t say that one should idly pass the time there did I? You are reading much more into what I said than I actually said. There is a clarity of vision abiding free from hatred. It is a suitable vantage point for studying arising and falling. I think you are talking about something else maybe?

Edit: Oh yes, and I didn’t say that I imagined myself safe

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I spent 15 years meditating in that clarity thinking myself free. I was not. I had to go hunt for the root of anger. And just sitting in blissful meditation was not effective on its own. I had to put myself on a cliff and be terrified. Abiding in bliss is NOT a cure for anger. We need to practice in challenging conditions, such as charnel grounds, etc. The roots of suffering run very very deep.

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Ah. I see. That was a mistake. Don’t do that! :heart: That really wasn’t what I was talking about. I was simply pointing out that abiding in hatred does not give rise to clear vision. Even when the mind is seemingly filled with hatred, there are gaps.

15 years? Wow!

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It is not an accomplishment of any sort.

Troubled by the memory of sudden arising of anger (I was being choked, but that is not an excuse), I sought answers in the martial arts. Here I thought to find an understanding of conflict and violence and anger. After careful consideration that learning how to kill and hurt would be harmful to me and others, I chose to study Aikido under Shiohira Sensei. Aikido has no attacks–it teaches techniques to respond to attacks.

I was very lucky to study with Shiohira Sensei, because Shiohira Sensei introduced his students to Rinzai Zen as taught by Tanouye Tenshi Roshi of Chozen-ji, Hawaii. My introduction to Buddhism was therefore via Rinzai Zen. Martial arts Zen. And after much study and meditation, I reached a measure of blissful equanimity.

And this blissful equanimity evaporated entirely on a rock cliff face staring down at my death. My study and practice was not complete. In martial arts, we practice without real threats. We learn instead is how to handle forces. And this is a good training. However, we do not learn to deal with actual possibilities of death staring at us in the face.

So I spent another 20 years rock climbing to deal with that reality. Old climbers are all equanimous. The excited ones tend to die.

And this year I was shown the suttas for the first time in my life. They are amazing. And I am also very grateful for the opportunity to have these kinds of discussions.

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Yes indeed. The “Wow!” was for the waste of time. Still, it all worked out in the end then. :grinning::anjal:

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Something I can relate to! Whatever mind moments are - they aren’t mind moments. If the mind only functions momentarily then it would not be aware of any breaks. Like a strobe light - if mind is only active when the strobe flashes, it would only perceive a steady light. It is because mind is aware in between the flashes that it can know there is a pulsing. Whatever mind moments are, awareness continues to exist between them because if it didn’t you wouldn’t be aware of the moments. That awareness may or may not be continuous - that is, it could be a higher frequency of pulses. Ultimately, it is impossible to determine if awareness is momentary or continuous - all we can say is that if it appears to be momentary it is not momentary at that frequency (because we are aware of it).

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The point here is not to come up with the grand unifying theory of consciousness, but to experience its workings … through experience!

This is exactly the experience of it.

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No step on the path is ever wasted.
And thank you for reminding me that I have a letter of thanks to write.
:heart:
:pray:

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As long as somethings are learnt from it. There were transferable qualities I’m sure. I can’t see it’s wasted as long as it allows exploration.

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