Jain Influence in Buddhist Suttas

Not sure I agree entirely.

To me, if it’s a momentary struggle or penance backed by right view, then it should pertain to the kamma that leads to end of kamma category, unique to Buddhism.

If it’s backed by wrong view, such as the one of niganthas, it only serves to perpetuate suffering.

In your example, I would say the person choosing to lean on the wall while meditating is likely acting out of right view and possibly right thought.

Right view because he/she probably had put that meditation session in context to his/her circumstances and decided that no gladness or stillness of mind would arise unless the least of physical comfort was initially present. That is aligned with the the reasoning the buddha-to-be followed to drop from the sallekhana vow he was into.

Right thought because he/she would have also chosen to do so or of kindness and non-violence towards herself.

On the other hand, the Jain monk depicted in the video above probably killed himself out of wrong view. Just like the buddha-to-be almost had done before rediscovering the path and the four Noble truths.

We have enough reference points in the EBTs to make that distinction.

One I like to highlight is that found in suttas which tells us of the world-transcending dependent origination such as AN10.2 or SN12.23.

In those discourses we see that a key stepping stone into the natural arising of liberating stillness is cultivating courses of action and understanding which do not lead to remorse and anxiety in regards to one’s past actions, worldviews and choices.

:anjal:

Another very popular motif seen in art from Gandhara is that of the Brahmin ascetic Sumedha with Dipamkara Buddha.

Sumedha wears tree bark, but also deerskin, and has long dreadlocks. He rejects the grains, and subsists only on wild fruit. He stays by the foot of a tree. He strives and persists constantly, and develops supernormal powers. But he does not hear anything about Dipamkara at first, because he is only enjoying the bliss of dhyana.

When Sumedha does eventually go to see Dipamkara Buddha, he lays down in the mud so that Dipamkara Buddha could walk over him without getting his feet dirty. Sumedha also vows to one day become a buddha like Dipamkara. In response, Dipamkara gives Sumedha the prediction that in a future lifetime, he will become a buddha named Gautama.

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That’s a circular argument at some point: I assume someone acts out of right view, and that’s good. I assume that someone acts with wrong view (per definition Jains) and that’s bad.

Again: Am i free to choose? So I say: I decided that meditating in my bed while sleeping, eating pizza, drinking coke and smoking pot give me the comfort that will give rise to gladness and stillness of mind. And that’s right view because I cloth my comfy theory in a buddhist garb?

Where do the suttas distinguish between right and wrong mortification (without being polemic)?

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Hey @Gabriel , there is a bit of ad absurdum fallacy in your response to my considerations. We dont need that. Let’s just try to keep the dialogue constructive.

My understanding is that when it comes to suttas like, for example, DN2, we have a quite clear-cut reference for how and when liberating and right immersion is to take place.

It requires a very strong foundation in ethics, formalised by the embracement of the ascetic life, which then makes the way for the gradual developmet of 1) Sense Restraint > 2) Mindfulness and Situational Awareness > 3) Contentment > 4) Giving Up the Hindrances > 4) Absorptions > 5) Knowledge and vision > 6) Ending of Defilements, necessarily in this order.

This is very well aligned with the framework found elsewhere, including AN10.2 and SN12.23 aforementioned.

Unfortunately, it is very far from the situation we see most people nowadays believing they are embracing the Buddhist path… :man_shrugging:

Hence, in the case of the individual who you describe, I see as an element of right view in his/her choice to lean the fact it was probably struggling to find any contentment in that situation he/she found herself at!

Unfortunately, I cannot tell much more about how much he/she had done of the foundational/preliminary “homework” in the sense of truly embracing an ascetic life, developing ethics, achieving sense restraint and sharpening his/her mindfulness and situational awareness…

Speaking for myself, for example, the reality is that I have done so little towards the formal and true embracement of ascetic life prescribed by the Buddha. Hence, I understand that when I call myself Buddhist that is more an aspiration than a reality.

And therefore, when I find myself pretending to be a “good Buddhist” and sitting in meditation, alone or in group, to develop stillness, I at least try to bring into it the least element of right view in the sense I avoid taking what would be simply useless self-torment as the right practice. Hence I seek to set up a seating posture as comfortable as it can be as long as it does not lead to torpor.

If I were to simply force myself to an uncomfortable and painful position from the begining would mean somehow I am making a mistake similar to the Buddha made when he was in a similar situation, before his awakening, while pursuing a much more extreme sallekhana vow.

Similarly, when I go on a retreat and give up ingesting food after midday, I endure the “pain” of moving from my eating routine as, in that context of emulating an ethical and ascetic routine, the frugality and moderation in my food intake is totally warranted as it frees up time in my day and do enhance my ability to embrace and benefit from sense restraint and sharpen my mindfulness and situational awareness.

This is very much aligned with what we see in MN70, when the Buddha presents a comprehensive framework for the individual to reflect and see for and within himself/herself the type and circumstances in which feeling —pleasurable, painful, or neutral— result in their unskillful qualities decline and their skillful qualities grow.

:anjal:

Obviously, because I want to drive the point home that when it comes to practice according to the EBT our personal opinion (e.g. about what constitutes valid or invalid mortification) is meaningless. And this is nicely expressed in MN 70 which you mentioned:

The Buddha knows, I do not know.

The monastics in the sutta who “eat in the evening, the morning, and at the wrong time of day” like it and feel well with it. The Buddha rebukes them. And what is his argument? “Because I know better”.

That’s trivial, obviously the Buddha knows better.
Hence my question: What is the explicit position of the suttas about right and wrong tapas? And based on the answer we could assess the question if there is a Jain (or general samana) influence in the EBT.

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SN45.36
Bhikkhus, I will teach you asceticism and the goal of asceticism. Listen to that….

“And what, bhikkhus, is asceticism? It is this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view … right concentration. This is called asceticism.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the goal of asceticism? The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion. This is called the goal of asceticism.

AN3.78
When—by following a life of precept & practice, a life, a holy life that is followed as of essential worth—one’s unskillful mental qualities increase while one’s skillful mental qualities decline: that sort of precept & practice, life, holy life that is followed as of essential worth is fruitless. But when—by following a life of precept & practice, a life, a holy life that is followed as of essential worth—one’s unskillful mental qualities decline while one’s skillful mental qualities increase: that sort of precept & practice, life, holy life that is followed as of essential worth is fruitful.

DN8
3.2With clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, I see some self-mortifier who lives rough reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell. 3.3But I see another self-mortifier who lives rough reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm. …3.6Since I truly understand the coming and going, passing away and rebirth of these self-mortifiers in this way, how could I criticize all forms of mortification, or categorically condemn and denounce those self-mortifiers who live rough?

4.1cs4There are some clever ascetics and brahmins who are subtle, accomplished in the doctrines of others, hair-splitters. You’d think they live to demolish convictions with their intellect. 4.2They agree with me in some matters and disagree in others…

Let us leave aside those matters on which we disagree. 5.3But there are some matters on which we agree. Regarding these, sensible people, pursuing, pressing, and grilling, would compare teacher with teacher or community with community:…

7.2‘There are things that are skillful, blameless, worth cultivating, worthy of the noble ones, and bright—and are reckoned as such. 7.3Who proceeds having totally undertaken these things: the ascetic Gotama, or the teachers of other communities?’

“Reverend Gotama, those ascetics and brahmins consider these practices of self-mortification to be what makes someone a true ascetic or brahmin. 14.3They go naked, ignoring conventions…

14.7They eat once a day, once every second day, up to once a week, and so on, even up to once a fortnight. They live committed to the practice of eating food at set intervals.

14.8Those ascetics and brahmins also consider these practices of self-mortification to be what makes someone a true ascetic or brahmin.

15.1cs15“Kassapa, someone may practice all those forms of self-mortification, 15.2but if they haven’t developed and realized any accomplishment in ethics, mind, and wisdom, they are far from being a true ascetic or brahmin. 15.3But take a mendicant who develops a heart of love, free of enmity and ill will. And they realize the undefiled freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom in this very life, and live having realized it with their own insight due to the ending of defilements. 15.4When they achieve this, they’re called a mendicant who is a ‘true ascetic’ and also ‘a true brahmin’.

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Thanks for this, saved me some time! :sweat_smile:

Thanks, DN 14 contains many vague and some explicit details for an actual differentiation

Here, acela Kassapa provides details, not the Buddha. Acelas are, as Bronkhorst and Balcerowicz worked out, probably Ajivikas or ‘sky-clad’ Jains. In DN 25 the same passage is spoken by the wanderer Nigrodha. In MN 12 by the Buddha about his own bodhisattva-practice. In MN 45, MN 51, MN 60 by the Buddha. In MN 94 by a bhikkhu Udena. And in AN 3.156–162 and AN 4.198 by anonymous speakers.

The speaker-situation adds some complexity to it, but let’s assume that the passage describes what the suttas consider ‘wrong self-mortification’. Let’s see what it is exactly:

They go naked, ignoring conventions

Taken literally, it means going naked would be wrong mortification.

They lick their hands

It’s not clear from the passage what it means. But we know that Digambara Jain monks didn’t use a bowl, so this might criticize the practice to receive alms-food directly into the hands.

they don’t come or wait when asked

It’s not clear from the text why that would be wrong or excessive. Maybe it was considered offensive. At least Mahavira is described to have received abuse for similar behavior.

They don’t consent to food brought to them, or food prepared on purpose for them, or an invitation for a meal.

Again, here the argument seems that it goes against social convention and politeness rather an excessive self-mortification.

They don’t receive anything from a pot or bowl; or from someone who keeps sheep, or who has a weapon or a shovel in their home; or where a couple is eating; or where there is a woman who is pregnant, breastfeeding, or who has a man in her home; or where there’s a dog waiting or flies buzzing.

Again, we can only speculate what’s the point here. There seems to be an element of ahimsa (no weapon) or some weird sense of purity, but the logic is not clear from the text itself.

They accept no fish or meat or liquor or wine, and drink no beer.

A strict vegetarianism, coupled with what is also a Buddhist rule, namely not to drugs.

They go to just one house for alms, taking just one mouthful, or two houses and two mouthfuls, up to seven houses and seven mouthfuls. They feed on one saucer a day, two saucers a day, up to seven saucers a day. They eat once a day, once every second day, up to once a week, and so on, even up to once a fortnight. They live committed to the practice of eating food at set intervals.

This seems to refer to what is seen as excessive fasting. (Btw years ago in Sri Lanka I met a Thera who was practicing very similarly, eating one day, fasting one day, then 2-2, 3-3… 14-14, then again 13-13, etc.)

Those ascetics and brahmins also consider these practices of self-mortification to be what makes someone a true ascetic or brahmin.

That’s clearly expresses an EBT-position: Asceticism and tapas are not the most essential aspects of Buddhism.

They eat herbs, millet, wild rice, poor rice, water lettuce, rice bran, scum from boiling rice, sesame flour, grass, or cow dung. They survive on forest roots and fruits, or eating fallen fruit.

Sounds like favorite items from an organic food store :slight_smile: The point might be that it’s unhealthy in the long run to just eat that.

They wear robes of sunn hemp, mixed hemp, corpse-wrapping cloth, rags, lodh tree bark, antelope hide (whole or in strips), kusa grass, bark, wood-chips, human hair, horse-tail hair, or owls’ wings.

Most of these are just uncomfortable for the sake of it. Even though Mahakassapa also wore a robe made of rags.

They tear out hair and beard

Self-inflicted pain-endurance…

They constantly stand, refusing seats… They squat… They lie on a mat of thorns, making a mat of thorns their bed… They make their bed on a plank, or the bare ground. They lie only on one side. They wear dust and dirt. They stay in the open air. They sleep wherever they lay their mat. They eat unnatural things, committed to the practice of eating unnatural foods.

Again, uncomfortable for the sake of it. Possibly to overcome pain.

They don’t drink, committed to the practice of not drinking liquids.

Mahavira was supposedly not drinking for longer times. Also death by not drinking is Jain practice at the end of their path.

They’re committed to the practice of immersion in water three times a day, including the evening.

To my knowledge this is a practice of penance, to purify oneself daily. It is not clear why that is excessive, except for maybe saying that it’s superstitious and inefficient.

The biggest problem with this passage is that it’s just an enumeration of items. We don’t even know if each and every one of them is condemned, or if it’s a list of things that ‘others’ do - with the possibility that not all of them are condemned by the EBT. And if they are criticized we don’t get a rationale, except the insinnuation that it’s ‘excessive’.

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The suttas may well contain some heterogenous material, but I think it is important not to overstate this. In most cases it’s a matter of interpretation whether it does. In my experience, when the material is evaluated carefully, it tends to have an overall coherence.

Let me try to give a couple of examples. In connection with the overcoming of unwholesome thoughts, for instance at AN 3.101 and MN 19, we often see words that may give the impression that a lot of will power is required. The Pali words used are typically rendered as “gets rid of, eliminates, and obliterates”. But when you look at the sequel in MN 19, you see that the method used for overcoming these thoughts is not will power, but reflection or wisdom. And this is echoed by other suttas, such as AN 2.12. In other words, what might look like a “Jain” practice, or at least a practice of force and perhaps torment, actually turns out to be something quite different.

The same is true, I believe, of the dhutaṅgas, the special ascetic practices. These practices are actually quite marginal in the suttas, especially the more severe ones. For instance, the nesajjika practice (“sitter’s practice”) is mentioned three times in the four main Nikāyas, at least two of which are marginal. In fact even the other dhutaṅga practices are mentioned only rarely in the suttas, mostly in connection with narrative descriptions of especially ascetic monks, such a Mahākassapa. I have not made an exhaustive search, but the Buddha hardly ever seems to mention them.

When it comes to meditators leaning against a wall, I really don’t think that’s a problem. It’s about time and place. When you start out, you just want to relax and establish mindfulness. Then when your mindfulness is clear, it makes sense to straighten the body. And this is pretty much how the mindfulness of breathing is described in MN 118, the Ānāpānassati Sutta.

In my experience pain and discomfort are hindrances to stilling the mind. To be able to let go of the body, it needs to be at ease so that it fades into the background. Neither indulgence nor discomfort is useful, just as the Buddha says in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, SN 56.11.

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Indeed, it was quite jarring to imagine being caught up into that world. Not my vision of liberation.

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I’ve heard death by starvation or dehydration (or both!) is pretty horrific (in terms of how it feels).

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Yes, it is appalling. Can you imagine if holding those views in a lifetime echoes through the next births? What a sad and painful trap to be locked in! :slightly_frowning_face:

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The practice of Sallekhana is taken by monks, laymen who are either terminally ill, extremely old with disabilities.
In other words it is taken by persons who are seeing their death inevitably.
Its not taken by normal monks who are in healthy condition. It is a way of embracing death when it is inevitable due to underlying medical conditions, extreme disabilities due to old age along with religious rituals by gradual giving up food in a phased manner.
The Buddha would never had gone for Sallekhana since he was going for the highest goal and Sallekhana was not really relevant for him as he was in a healthy condition . He would have got in the highly starved condition due to intense meditation without food intake to maintain the continuity of the meditation.
Again the concept of torment is relative.One may think a practice is tormenting one self but the purpose is different.For example a new person may find sitting cross legged continuosly as means of tormenting oneself, though the purpose is different.
Similarly in Jains, the practices are not for tormenting oneself , eg.removal of hair by pulling.Similarly intense fasting for several days would have been to enable you for continous meditation for days together without a break. If you cannot fast for longer periods, you cannot continuosly meditate for several days.Though the original intent would have been lost over a period of time as the meditative practices compared to buddhist practices were lost over a period of time

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First of all, yes, positive depiction of austerity is rare in the suttas. So we have to position ourselves towards these minority voices. If I say they’re irrelevant then I dismiss a Jain influence automatically. If I say ‘even a minority voice needs to be explained’ then there is a more complex (and in my opinion realistic) case.

A general question is, what’s the deal with the stern Mahakassapa? Was he an outliner, or was he more important but later marginalized? Are his practices more in line with contemporary Jain and/or austere samana practitioners?

And in detail, how do I relate to austerity when it occurs?
Eg Snp 1.4 “Faith is the seed, tapas the rain; wisdom is my yoke and plow.”
Or Snp 2.7 "The rishis of the past controlled themselves and were tapassins; having abandoned the five strands of sense pleasures, they practiced for their own good.
DN 14 and Dhp 14 have the past Buddha Vipassī declare patient endurance to be the highest tapa

As mentioned above we have a sometimes repeated passage that says:

Here, a bhikkhu patiently endures cold and heat; hunger and thirst; contact with flies, mosquitoes, wind, the burning sun, and serpents; rude and offensive ways of speech; he is able to bear up with arisen bodily feelings that are painful, racking, sharp, piercing, harrowing, disagreeable, sapping one’s vitality.

It is not self-inflicted, but apart from enduring life I also read a position of austerity here that almost matches the Jain practice. And what is the message of this passage anyway? Something like ‘don’t escape the sun, the rain, don’t take drugs against the pain, don’t do anything against rude speech’…

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Yes, it is similar but not the same.

To me, the standard passage you quote is all about a bhikkhu/ bhikkhuni preparing himself/herself to the chances of facing these difficulties once they have taken up the robes as they pursue and develop the right livelihood factor of the path.

As they move from one place to another, through the seasons and the years of their spiritual career they will encounter such things and they should be brave and strong to keep going despite them.

Hence the phrasing which points to endurance, patience. It is all about having the courage and determination to keep going even when these things come about.

The Jain practice is different. The livelihood of the ascetic adherents of that doctrine is all about seeking painful and stressful circumstances as they understand that is what right livelihood is.

In their case, it is all about actively pursuing those things.

All in all, according to the Jain soteriology and cosmology, it is all that physical stress and suffering that causes the soul to shed the impurities of the kamma surrounding it and stopping it from floating up and sticking to the ceiling of the universe, siddhashila.

By this way, the message of passage you quote is:

Bhikkhus/bhikkhunis, as you develop the eightfold path:
Be prepared to patiently endure cold and heat;
Be prepared to patiently endure hunger and thirst;
Be prepared to patiently endure contact with flies, mosquitoes, wind, the burning sun, and serpents;
Be prepared to patiently endure rude and offensive ways of speech;
Be prepared to patiently endure and bear up with arisen bodily feelings that are painful, racking, sharp, piercing, harrowing, disagreeable, sapping one’s vitality.
You will encounter these things and, despite the challenge they will represent, don’t yet give up, be strong and keep going…

This is very very different to the almost insane concept of a spiritual path being all about pursuing these things!

:anjal:

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Well, that’s a twisted perspective. The idea is to become indifferent towards the sensual realm, including pain.

Did the Buddha never redefine tapas like he did the many other pre-existing non-Buddhist terms he adopted?

This just sounds like the kinds of things anyone could expect to experience while living in a jungle. That certainly sums up my experience living in a forest monastery in Thailand.

Perhaps this is just an extreme example used to drive home the point? Like in the Simile of the Saw?

I’ve always been under the impression that in the non-Buddhist ascetic traditions pain was seen to either:

  • purify one’s kamma
  • be part-and-parcel of the practices that purified one’s kamma, and so was unavoidable and necessary (no pain, no gain)
  • or at the very least was able to signify one’s spiritual attainments through the enduring of it, like stretching one’s penis by tying heavy rocks to it and lifting the rocks. You can find pictures of Hindu sadhus doing this today.
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I can only recommend to read the Acaranga Sutra, instead of pulling arguments from random sources. Maybe some of you forgot that Buddhism is for many outsiders the religion that states that “everything is suffering”. Sounds depressing? So, to judge another religion like Jainism based on insufficient knowledge is cheap. The goal of Jainism is liberation and to end the cycle of rebirth, not to maximize pain in a BDSM dungeon.

For the sake of the splendour, honour, and glory of this life, for the sake of birth, death, and final liberation, for the removal of pain, all these causes of sin are at work, which are to be comprehended and renounced in this world. He who, in the world, comprehends and renounces these causes of sin, is called a rewardknowing sage (muni). [Acaranga Sutra 1.1.1]

Sounds like favorite items from an organic food store :slight_smile:
Tasty/funny😂

I would highly recommend these three volumes which provide an in-depth study of the histories and literature of both! Here is an archive link to the second volume. The third I couldn’t find easily but I found a PDF of the first volume from a site called jainelibrary.org.

978-81-8069-338-0-768x1181|325x500

It outlines many of the similarities and differences between the two traditions of the śramaṇa dharma, while highlighting some of the ‘superiority conceit’ found in both.

While the above resources are better, here are a few of my thoughts.

While austerity is a crucial element, it far from defines the religion. As an example, the twelve vows of laypeople are quite practical. They include limiting unnecessary activities, limiting disposable and non-disposable items, and devoting oneself to meditation and the moon phase observance days that Buddhists do.

I would say the biggest difference is that Buddhism focuses on contemplating ‘not-self’, whereas Jainism focuses on contemplating ‘self’.

Austerity as gautama did is an extreme exmple of body mortification. Most of the austerities are practices many Buddhists engage in.

Here is a short list I found;

"External austerities include fasting, abstinences, restraint in begging alms, renunciation of delicacies, self-mortification, retreat from the world.

Internal austerities include penance, respect to elders, service to others, study, meditation, abandonment of the body in one’s thoughts."

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