SuttaCentral
Of course. Still, the law delineated by the Buddha in the Aññatitthiya Sutta (AN 3.68) holds true - attending to the beautiful nimitta leads to passion (rāga). Only in this case, it is passion for immaterial becoming (arūpa-rāga), one of the ten fetters ( saṃyojana). Brahmavamso’s perseverant denial of any possibility of attachment to jhāna raises another red flag of such danger.
Well, sleep also provides such experience 
Thank you 
You are probably aware of DN 29?:
These four kinds of indulgence in pleasure, when developed and cultivated, lead solely to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment. What four?
It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. This is the first kind of indulgence in pleasure.
…[the second, third and fourth jhana]…
It’s possible that wanderers who follow other paths might say, ‘How many fruits and benefits may be expected by those who live indulging in pleasure in these four ways?’ You should say to them, ‘Four benefits may be expected by those who live indulging in pleasure in these four ways. What four?
…[the four stages of awakening]…
The point being that “attachment” to the bliss of jhana, in the context of the noble eightfold path, is not a bad thing. I.e the whole idea that wholesome jhana pleasure is not to be feared.
Anyway, thanks for explaining your view on this, I’m content to stop for now, we’re probably not going to solve this issue that people seem to have been debating for thousands of years 
Thank you for the quote. The pleasure of jhanas is indeed beneficial. However, the Buddha repeatedly emphasizes the importance of not letting this pleasure invade your mind:
“So when I had taken solid food and regained strength, then — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the fading of rapture I remained in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. I entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, ‘Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.’ But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.”
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036.than.html
The wholesome jhāna pleasure is certainly not to be feared, however the attachment to the bliss of jhāna is certainly unwholesome:
"And how is the mind said to be internally positioned? There is the case where a monk, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. His consciousness follows the drift of the rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal, is tied to… chained… fettered, & joined to the attraction of the rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal. Or further, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. His consciousness follows the drift of the rapture & pleasure born of composure, is tied to… chained… fettered, & joined to the attraction of the rapture & pleasure born of composure. Or further, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, ‘Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.’ His consciousness follows the drift of the equanimity & pleasure, is tied to… chained… fettered, & joined to the attraction of the equanimity & pleasure. Or further, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. His consciousness follows the drift of the neither pleasure nor pain, is tied to… chained to… fettered, & joined to the attraction of the neither pleasure nor pain: The mind is said to be internally positioned.
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.138.than.html
Moreover, if one indulges in the passion to immaterial becoming, one may end up in the “blackout” state (asañña-samapatti) instead of the jhāna.
OK, as you wish
Speculation only -
Jhana is about both body and mind interrelated.
First jhana, earth element is dissolving, water element and air element are prominent. Powder is being mixed with water, being carefully stirred, fully saturated. Stirring is the perception of air element. From Bio, sensory for pain, itch, rigidity, is inactive.
2nd Jhana, perception of Earth element is dissolved. Perception to Fire element is slowing dissolving. Thus it feels cool. Cool, water, movement, work together, it is a underground spring well, or a cool shower, or a cool bucket of water pouring down. Bio perspective, sensor to the environment temperature is inactive.
3rd jhana, fire element dissolved. Thus it is cool all around. Air element dissolves. Thus it is still. Together it is dense cool mist. or conglomerate of tiny icicles. Pond of cool still water. Breath stops.
Last, mind stops perceiving water element.
All 4 jhana have space element, always carry a confined space. i.e. White cloth from top to toe. i.e. No inflow from east west north south.
The ‘entire body’ mentioned, it is about Space element. It represents the mind’s interpretation of a boundary or multiple boundaries in space, it is here and not there etc. The boundaries of space dissolves in the next level. It is the divider between rupa and arupa realm. “entire body” doesn’t represent anything more than a special space.
I would say sensation of rapture and sukha are body/mind phenomena. Although i would say once water element is dissolved, i probably consider physical body is no more.
Hello, I’m late to the discussion, but IMO if you are looking for a different method of right samadhi, a different perspective than Ajahn Brahm, I find Ajahn Thanisarro’s daily talks very helpful. The writing’s of the master Ajaan Lee, method 2 is essential and the basis of Thanisarro’s teachings. Ajahn Sona is also excellent samadhi teacher. Try to learn from them all then do the work, and find your own way. It’s all fabricated by your mind anyway, until you find what is not fabricated. Hopefully we’ll understand what than means some day.
From the perspective of the Anapanasati sutta, Thanissaro draws attention to that meditation on the breath means progression to awareness of the whole body as per the first tetrad.
I might’ve missed it, but I would be really interested in what sutta the Buddha suggests that ‘a sounds pull him from his immersion’. Do anyone have a reference?
My current understanding is that the transition between jhana states and the transition in and out of jhana can be very fast. As a simile consider fish or a whale breaking the surface of the water (into the sensual world) and then diving back down into the depths (of jhana). So one can be in jhana, then momentarily come back into the sensual world, hear a noise, and then submerge back into jhana. Thus it might appear that one is hearing a sound whilst in jhana, but technically one has left jhana momentarily.
Yes indeed, spreading pleasant awareness of the breath through the whole body is how this method develops, and body awareness until it becomes a distraction and should be dropped is much of this method.
The problem is that there’s only one Agama parallel that I can find that agrees with these Theravada passages that exist in DN and MN. There’s just not much evidence that it was from the earliest period of Buddhism, otherwise we should see more parallels and consistency the way we do with the jhana formulas themselves.
After I posted my comments in the other thread, I did find a Chinese parallel to DN 2 (T22) that includes metaphors with the four jhanas. They use similar imagery but mean completely different things. Not only do they lack the connecting passage that Theravadins point to as explicitly defining kaya in the third jhana as physical, the explanations of the metaphors specifically avoid that reading of kaya repeatedly.
It reads like this, to paraphrase a bit (T22.274c11-275a7):
The first jhana is like a person entering a bathing pool filled with clean and pure water. They cross over the other side, and their mind rejoices.
The monk is likewise. In quiet seclusion, he’s peaceful and happy. He observes everything that arises from the body and sees nothing of the body. Throughout his observation, there’s no (sense faculties?), and the mind’s activity is quieted, making him joyous and comfortable.
The second jhana is like lotus flowers and water lilies that grow in the muck under water. Although they were in the water, the water and dirt doesn’t cling to their stems, leaves, flowers, and fruit.
The monk is likewise. In this body with samadhi, he’s comfortable and rejoices. With this mental attainment, he reaches a steadfast place, it becomes unchangeable, and his mind is purified without the dust of desire.
The third jhana is like a mountain that’s solid without cracks and it’s limitless in size. When an east wind blows on it, it isn’t moved by it. It’s the same with south, west, and north winds. That’s because it’s root is solid and imperturbable. It has a water spring that’s clear and delicious, without any pollutants. it supports the mountain by filling it up and flows all around it. The water purifies it.
The monk is likewise. In this body of contemplation, there’s no delight or comfort to depend on. His (mental) activity is perfected, observing there’s no body, and then his view is universal.
The fourth jhana is like a person who puts on new clothes on the seventh or eighth day of the month. Their face is shining, and they observe their non-naked body because they wanted to cover it with a fine garment.
The monk is likewise. His physical actions are pure, and his mind is without defilement. With joy, he’s liberated, without any domain for this (mental) activity. He doesn’t see there’s a body, and everywhere observes no abodes (sense fields?). His mind’s function is purified without any of the many pollutants.
Then it goes on (T22.275a9-17):
It’s like a great meeting hall that’s not far from a regional capital. Someone goes up into it and lights a (beacon) fire. It’s light shines, neither high nor low. The wind doesn’t put it out. It’s not obscured by birds (flying) or any other type of creature. It remains steadfast and undisturbed.
The monk is likewise. His mind is unconfused, steadfast, and undisturbed. He has attained the purity of emptiness. The monk has this understanding, has attained this attainment, and his body is tranquil. This body of four elements was born from parents. The consciousness that depends on it discards this body and doesn’t enjoy it. The constantly renewed body and mind is tiresome, so he doesn’t accept it anymore. He makes the mind formless and eliminates all bodies of form and types of existence, but he doesn’t lose the root that establishes the body and mind (i.e., doesn’t die?).
It goes on. Admittedly, the explanations are a little difficult to translate because they use terms that often mean the sense faculties and fields, and the passages about “seeing no body” is unclear. (There are lots of bodies in Buddhism.)
I ought to translate the entire sutra sometime soon. It’s pretty fascinating as an alternate version of DN 2. I really have to wonder if this isn’t the Sarvâstivāda version, but I won’t be able to know until someone publishes something of what’s in the Skt. fragments scholars are working on.
There just isn’t anything else I can find in parallels. I’ve hunted, believe me, because it’s pretty interesting to try to track these things down and see the variations that existed. Another is an EA sutra that calls the four jhanas “bathing pools” (of the mind, not the body). There may be others I haven’t discovered yet - the EBTs and Abhidharma texts in Chinese are voluminous to say the least.
At the end of the day, I think someone caught the literalist bug and wrote these passages we see in a handful of Pali suttas. The sensible reading of kaya in the third jhana to me, given all of this comparative reading, is that “with this body” means “in this life with this incarnation made of five aggregates.” It would jibe with the EBT view of the mortal existence in general.
The Theravada insistence on the physical body is to disassociate itself from the Brahmin tradition which expounded a progression from one ‘sheath’ to the next:
"The Panchakoshas are listed as follows -
The series of four inner bodies beginning with the physical body is preserved in the questionable Dhammakaya meditation, which is said to be a different interpretation of the four jhanas.
Sorry, but even if the parallels would be absent, this won’t prove anything, since the quantity of parallels is too weak a criterion for textual criticism. For the conclusion to be more or less reliable, several criteria have to be employed.
Here’s a Sanghabhedavastu parallel to this passage:
- sa sukhasya ca prahāṇād duḥhasya ca prahāṇāt pūrvam eva saumanasyadaurmanasyayor aṣṭaṁgamād aduḥkhāsukham upekṣāsmṛtipariśuddhaṁ caturthaṁ dhyānam upasaṁpadya viharati; sa imam eva kāyaṁ pariśuddhacittena paryavadātena adhimucya spharitvopasaṁpadya viharati; nāsya kiṁcit sarvataḥ kāyād asphuṭaṁ bhavaty aspharaṇīyaṁ yaduta pariśuddhena cittena paryavadātena
…
tadyathā kūṭāgāre vā kūṭāgāraśālāyāṁ vā taila ### tasya tejaḥ naivonnataṁ bhavati nāvanatam anabhinataṁ sthitaṁ āniñjyaprāptam evam eva yasmin samaye āryaśrāvakaḥ sukhasya ca prahāṇād duḥkhasya ca prahāṇāt pūrvam eva ca saumanasyadaurmanasyayor aṣṭaṁgamād aduḥkham asukham upekṣāsmṛtipariśuddhaṁ caturthaṁ dhyānam upasaṁpadya viharati, tasya cittaṁ tasmin samaye naivonnataṁ bhavati nāvanatam anabhinataṁ sthitam āniñjyaprāptaṁ; tasyaivaṁ bhavati
ayaṁ mama kāyo rūpī odārikaś cāturmahābhūtikaḥ; vijñānām atra pratiṣṭhitam atra paryāpannaṁ; yannv aham asmāt kāyād mānasaṁ vyutthāpyānyaṁ kāyam abhinirmāyāṁ rūpiṇaṁ manomayam avikalam ahīnendriyaṁ; sa tasmāt kāyān mānasaṁ vyutthāpyānyaṁ kāyam abhinirmimīte rūpiṇaṁ manomayam avikalam ahīnendriyaṁ;
https://suttacentral.net/san-mu-kd17/san/gbm#866--916
The black-and-white “EBT vs non-EBT” approach is quite crude, since the interpretation in line with it depends too much on personal opinion. I advocate a more nuanced chronological approach, whereby one uses the earliest definitions available. In this case, one of the earlier texts, namely Peṭakopadesa, provides helpful hints of the meaning of kaya in the third jhāna.
Is the Petakopadesa authoritative, if it only dates to around the beginning of the common era, is particular to the Pali tradition, and the text itself is known to be somewhat corrupt? At that point, we might as well be using Sarvastivada interpretations.
The beginning of the common era is the beginning of the middle period of Indian Buddhism, after all the Indian Buddhist monastic sects like Sthavira, Mahasamghika, Dharmaguptaka, Sarvastivada, etc., had already diverged in their interpretations in a multitude of ways.
On the topic of the first jhanna I see it as an opportunity to ask - does anyone know what a bathroom attendant is? Why do they use powder to make ball? 
It’s like when a deft bathroom attendant or their apprentice pours bath powder into a bronze dish, sprinkling it little by little with water. They knead it until the ball of bath powder is soaked and saturated with moisture, spread through inside and out; yet no moisture oozes out. -AN 5.28
In the examples I’ve seen, these things appear mostly in passages describing the lifestyles of wealthy people in ancient India, typically Ksatriyas. You can see these types of passages where the men do all sorts of exercises like wrestling, until they are sweaty and tired. Then attendants will massage them with oils, and then they’re bathed with some kind of bath powder of dry ingredients that has to have water added slowly, and kneaded like a ball of dough.
From the Lokottaravadin Mahavastu:
He was taken to the bathroom, was given an unguent with perfumed oil, bathed with exquisite bathing powders, anointed with exquisite ointments, and arrayed in fine garments of silk.
The merchants were made to sit on fine bejewelled seats, and had their hair and beards trimmed by barbers. Thus they were made ready to exercise in the gymnasia and bathe in the baths. When they had been washed, massaged and anointed they were smeared with the red ointment of the fragrant dark sandal-wood. They were then clothed in sumptuous garments, and decorated with fine garlands and bouquets.
“Formerly bath attendants bathed thee early in the morning and rubbed thee with reddish unguent of sandalwood, coloured like the moon, and pleasantly fragrant and cool. But now in the cold and bitter nights thou dost roam and wander from forest to forest. Who, prithee, does now bathe thee with clean and cool and refreshing water when thou art weary?”
From the Kalpa Sutra of Jainism, describing Siddhartha, father of Mahavira:
When in due time the god of the day had risen and by the blows of his hands (or rays) the darkness was driven away, while the inhabited world was, as it were, dipped in saffron by the morning sun, the Kshatriya Siddhârtha rose from his bed, descended from the footstool, went to the hall for gymnastic exercises, and entered it. There he applied himself to many wholesome exercises, jumped, wrestled, fenced, and fought till he got thoroughly tired: then he was anointed with hundredfold and thousandfold refined different kinds of oil, which nourished, beautified, invigorated, exhilarated, strengthened, and increased all senses and limbs. On an oiled hide he was shampooed by clever men with soft and tender palms of the hands and soles of the feet, who were well acquainted with the best qualities of the practices of anointing, kneading, and stretching; well trained, skilful, excellent, expert, intelligent, and never tiring. When by this fourfold agreeable treatment of the body the king’s bones, flesh, skin, and hair had been benefited, and his fatigues banished, he left the hall for gymnastic exercises, and entered the bathing-house. The pleasant bathing-room was very agreeable, and contained many windows ornamented with pearls; its floor was decorated with mosaic of various jewels and precious stones. On the bathing-stool, inlaid with various jewels and precious stones in the form of arabesques, he comfortably sat down and bathed himself with water scented with flowers and perfumes, with tepid water and pure water, according to an excellent method of bathing, combined with healthy exercises. When this healthy excellent bathing under many hundredfold pleasures was over, he dried his body with a long-haired, soft, scented, and coloured towel, put on a new and costly excellent robe, rubbed himself with fresh and fragrant Gosîrsha and sandal, and ornamented himself with fine wreaths and sandal-ointment.
Well, you get the idea. It keeps going on like this.
It’s not simply that the parallels are absent. The one that exists indicates that these passages are related to a particular sectarian lineage. Historical sources point to the Mahīśāsaka as the common ancestor of the Dharmaguptaka and Theravada, and the close similarity the Dirgha Agama and Digha Nikaya as well as the Sariputra Abhidharma and Theravada Abhidhamma texts makes it clear they descend from a common ancestor.
Thanks for pointing this out. The Mūlasarvâstivāda Vinaya is of a very late date, being packed with sutras and jatakas compared to the earlier Vinayas. It’s still interesting to see this parallel. In all honesty, there appears to have been a sort of osmosis that took place at some point late in Buddhist history. I see these types of sharing of passages quite often when I look at earlier Chinese translations and the Pali versions of later sutras (such as the literary texts in DN). It makes deciphering how later texts came to the form that have today difficult to trace.
I honestly think this method leads to a wild goose chase, since the earliest Abhidharma texts probably date to the same general era, which is too late to use as the earliest views on topics like this. The conclusion I come to is that it’s a middle period controversy between literalists and rationalists. It might go back to early times, but the arguments are found in later works. I’m sure we can find lots of examples of both positions. One side or the other might represent the early ideas, but there’s no good way to discern it objectively. Hence, my pragmatic solution.
It’s dates to around 2nd century BCE.
Peṭaka was, and still is, a text preserved in several traditions. As ven. Nyanatusita writes:
In the Vimuttimagga there are several references to a work called Tipiṭaka. Parallels to these passages are found in the Pali Peṭakopadesa. One passage on the hindrances, which is also quoted in Pali commentarial works (Vism IV.84, etc. See below), does not have an exact parallel. Bapat (1937, p. xliii) suggests that the term Peṭaka might therefore refer to a work now lost. Ñāṇamoli (The Piṭaka Disclosure, PTS, London, 1964, p. xxix–xxx) disagrees: “… this can be ruled out since the term is used in the Nett-a of a quotation traceable in the Peṭ … as to the other quotation attributed to the Peṭaka by the commentaries but not found in the Peṭ as it exists now, two explanations are possible. The one is that there may be have been variant versions of the Peṭ current at the time the Commentaries were composed, some of which lacked the missing quoted passages, … The other is that that the missing passages were from that part of Ch. VI which is now lost. The explanation may actually be either or both. The work calls itself Peṭakopadesa … and Peṭaka (§ 572).”
Vism IV.84, Paṭis-a I 181, Nidd-a 127: Tathā hi samādhi kāmacchandassa paṭipakkho, pīti vyāpādassa, vitakko thīnamiddhassa, sukhaṃ uddhacca-kukkuccassa, vicāro vicikicchāyā ti peṭake vuttaṃ. Cf. Peṭ 160: Tattha kāmacchandassa nekkhammavitakko paṭipakkho; byāpādassa abyāpādavitakko paṭipakkho; tiṇṇaṃ nīvaraṇānaṃ avihiṃsāvitakko paṭipakkho.
Warder, in his examination of the Paṭisambhidāmagga Gaṇṭhipada in the Introduction to the Path of Discrimination, notes: “As Ñāṇamoli points out … it is not found in the Peṭakopadesa. … The Gaṇṭhipada (p. 106*), however, provides the positive information that this Peṭaka is a book of the Mahiṃsāsakas, an aṭṭhakathā made for the purpose of the Suttantapiṭaka. This implies that it was a work similar to the Peṭakopadesa … Thus both schools had a recension of this work, but differing in such details as this. …” (Paṭisambhidāmaggagaṇṭhipadatthavaṇṇanā, ed. Ariyavaṃsa, Semage, Colombo, 1967.) The passage in the Gaṇṭhipada is “Suttante piṭakatthāya kataṭṭhakathā peṭakaṃ mahiṃsakānaṃ gantho.”
Zacchetti (2002), revealed that in the Chinese Canon there is a text called Yin chi rujing, translated in the 3d century, which corresponds to most of the sixth chapter of the Pali Peṭakopadesa. Then there is another Chinese text, the Da zhidu lun, which mentions the Peṭaka as a text circulating in South India (presumably Kāñcipura and Sri Lanka) and that it is an abridged version of an orginally larger text. It describes a few of the methods of the Peṭaka and gives examples which roughly correspond to passages in the Peṭaka; see Zacchetti 2001.
Thus it appears that the Peṭakopadesa was circulating in different schools and in different versions. This also explains the verses about the nimmittabuddha in Nidd-a II 318 which are attributed to the Peṭaka but which are not found in the Pali version and, as Ñāṇamoli notes, are unlike anything in it; see The Piṭaka Disclosure p. 400.
If we disregard all the texts particular to this or that tradition, we’d be left with pure conjecture on the precise meaning of most technical terms. Therefore early texts, even if they are particular to certain traditions, are precious.
The above-mentioned Yin chi rujing should contain an early explanation of the four jhānas, so I would greatly appreciate if someone would look it up.
Where is this view promulgated , is this a view promulgated in the suttas or is it a view concluded by modern scholars ?
If that’s the case buddha would not call it immersion and it’s unwise if we assume this immersion is lesser than jhana like access concentration or momentary concentration since we are talking about buddha here not some ordinary man who doesn’t know how to do meditation, in case of buddha we know he can enter signless immersion and cessation at will
Now I too believe the 5 senses are shutted off during jhana but people can still hear sound without senses otherwise there’s no way gods could hear and see
The counter argument is some gods like fairies live in sense plane like human and can hear sound but brahma who lives in jhana sphere they could still hear and see
Another counter argument is these gods are no longer in jhana when they see any sensephere object this argument impose that whoever being go to any plane they will experience the state of that plane but I don’t think this is the case since if this is true buddha would suffer if he go to hell
I personally take the suttas found in the Samyukta Agama and Samyutta Nikaya as being the closest to the early Buddhist teachings, as they are simpler and less literary, in general than what we find in the more complex suttas/sutras in the other collections. Though I would say many of the simpler suttas in the Anguttara Nikaya and Ekôttarika Agama are probably of similar age.