John Kelly Pali course 2023: Warder lesson 15b

thank you for spotting my spelling mistake. :pray:

DN2, 95.2.
So dibbena cakkhunā visuddhena atikkantamānusakena satte passati cavamāne upapajjamāne hīne paṇīte suvaṇṇe dubbaṇṇe sugate duggate, yathākammūpage satte pajānāti: ‘ime vata bhonto sattā kāyaduccaritena samannāgatā vacīduccaritena samannāgatā manoduccaritena samannāgatā ariyānaṁ upavādakā micchādiṭṭhikā micchādiṭṭhikammasamādānā.

Bhikkhu Bodhi agrees with Warder: "“These beings—who were endowed with bad conduct of body, …” but Sujato translates it “‘These dear beings did bad things by way of body,…”

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And like @BethL I’m having a spot of trouble analysing samannāgatā: maybe someone can help?

Pure coincidence! I tried to search for kāyaducaritena and was shown that there are no results. But while typing, my browser must have made a short halt at kāyaduc, so for a split of a second I saw that segment in focus. Then went back to it and found the difference. :smile: :wink:

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Samannāgata Samannāgata (adj.) [saŋ+anvāgata] followed by, possessed of, endowed with (instr.)

(From PED). The word takes the instrumental case. In the Digha quote above it’s pluralized to match ‘ime sattā. ‘

Also see here

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And anvāgata breaks down further to anu + ā + √gam + ta.

And Gillian, while in English we might associate being ‘endowed with something’ as a positive, in Pāli in just means ‘having’, ‘possessing’, so it goes with both positive and negative qualities.

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A post was merged into an existing topic: John Kelly Pali course 2023: lesson 16a

We’re looking MN9 tonight with Bhante Rahula, and tena hi has popped up here too!

I do get the sense that “well then” in MN9 and “now” in our reading passage both sort of mean, “allrighty, then.” :wink:

@johnk I get what you mean about not trying to tease apart phrases, in the hopes of extracting an expression’s meaning from its individual components. I stared at the entries for tena and hi separately, for way too long! trying to synthesize how “thereby; because of that” + “indeed, because” = “now” :crazy_face:


Very grateful to @Dheerayupa who recommended just popping whole phrases into DPD, and I’ll be doing this going forward:

Similarly, kho (and now, nāmā ) are other instances where I’m trying to resist the temptation to find an English equivalent every time it appears - and instead - to feel out what it’s doing in any given instance.

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That is a very good idea!

Imagine if we tried it in English!
“Be that as it may…”
“The upshot is…”
“I’m angling for…”
etc. etc. etc…

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Spot on! Now you’ve got the idea. Idiomatic phrases occur in all languages.

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haha, and “spot on” is a perfect one - (I’m trying to imagine saying it in Vietnamese - to a puzzled listener asking “what is the spot on?”)

Yes, most others like kuto pana & atha kho I just swallowed up at face value and didn’t look too closely - I think my own knottiness with tena hi was from trying to disambiguate it from its use as a pronoun and then “towards” in “yena…tena” constructions.

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My problem is struggling to know when these ‘problematic’ words are stand-alones and when they are part of a set phrase.

With tena hi, I didn’t know to look it up as a set phrase, I just happened to see it pop up on the list! :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

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I’m sure your eye will glide over these kinds of phrases soon. (evam eva kho, etc. )

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Yeah that just comes with experience. The good thing about Warder, for all its flaws, is that he is at least exposing us to “real” Pāli.

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Question 1:
paṭissutvā - having agreed with (absolutive)
vs.
paṭissuṇitvā - having agreed with (absolutive)

The first spelling is used in the reading passage for lesson 14, while the second version comes up in the bhikkhuni patimokkha a number of times e.g Pc 45:
Yā pana bhikkhunī bhikkhuniyā “ehāyye, imaṁ adhikaraṇaṁ vūpasamehī”ti vuccamānā “sādhū”ti paṭissuṇitvā sā pacchā anantarāyikinī neva vūpasameyya, na vūpasamāya ussukkaṁ kareyya, pācittiyaṁ.

Are they simply variant spellings or is there some difference?

Question 2:
Warder gives padīpeyyaṁ in the vocabluary for lesson 15, a neuter noun meaning lamp. But there is also padīpa a masculine noun. Is there a difference in meaning or usage?

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I share your difficulty; so often it feels like really unstable and shifting ground.

When we were doing high school French there were lists of idioms to memorise every week. I‘ve not found this to be case with Pali. @johnk @stephen is there a list of idioms available anywhere for us to refer to?

Hi,
Here is the PED entry:

Paṭissuṇāti [paṭi+śru ] to assent, promise, agree aor. paccassosi Vin i.73; D i.236; S i.147, 155; Sn p. 50, and paṭisuṇi SnA 314; ger. ˚suṇitvā freq. in formula “sādhū ti patissuṇitvā” asserting his agreement, saying yes S i.119; PvA 13, 54, 55; & passim; also paṭissutvā S i.155

Padīpiya & Padīpeyya Padīpiya & Padīpeyya (nt.) [padīpa+(i) ya] that which is connected with lighting, material for lighting a lamp, lamps & accessories; one of the gifts forming the stock of requisites of a Buddhist mendicant (see Nd2 523: yañña as deyyadhamma). The form in ˚eyya is the older and more usual one,

So it seems padīpeyya implies the material for a lamp (padīpa).
Interestingly, the Pali word for ‘lamp’ is generally padīpa, the ‘be an island’ (dīpa) phrase is sometimes mistakenly translated as ‘lamp’.

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ko nu kho papa bho jānāti madanīyā kāmā

Ajahn Brahmali: But, Sir, who knows? The sense pleasures are intoxicating.

Question: What is the function of papa here, please?

This should read “pana”.

From the Mahāgovinda sutta.
(CST #307: “Ko nu kho pana, bho, jānāti, madanīyā kāmā?“)

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Thank you so much :pray: :sunflower:

If the sentence is in fact: ko nu kho pana, bho, jānāti , madanīyā kāmā?

Then, the translation should be: Then, Sir, who knows that the sense pleasures are intoxicating?