John Kelly’s Pāli 2024 (G&K) Class 33

Thread for discussing John Kelly’s Pāli 2024 (G&K) Class 33 for the class on November 24th / 25th 2024.

Meeting ID: 829 5896 1475

Passcode: anicca

You will need to remain in the “waiting room” until host lets you in.

Homework preparation for this class:

  1. Review G&K Lesson XII: Grammar, pp. 169-172

  2. Review G&K Glossary XII-1, pp. 165-169

  3. Complete G&K Lesson XII: Readings 2-4, pp. 164-165

  4. Study G&K Glossary XII-2, pp. 176-178

  5. Begin G&K Lesson XII: Further Readings (Dhammacakkappavattana), pp. 173-176


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I think I struggled with these two sentences, because the object of dialogue was in dative, instead of accusative, as we’ve seen with vacati, deseti, or pucchati.

  1. “sace suvaṇṇakārassa ācikkhissāmi, vetanaṃ dātabbaṃ bhavissatī”ti
  2. Te assa yaṃ vā taṃ vā rukkhatacādiṃ ācikkhiṃsu.

If I understand correctly, here - the goldsmith is the object of ācikkhati (future)?
“IF I WILL TELL THE GOLDSMITH, WAGES WILL HAVE TO BE GIVEN.”

And here, assa (the Brahman), is the object of ācikkhati (aorist)?
“THE DOCTORS TOLD THE BRAHMAN OF SUCH&SUCH TREEBARK.”

Does the dative form appear frequently to express the object receiving speech?

Yes, I think so.

Have a look at Wijesekera Syntax, Section #93.

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Great, I did just find it, and learned some other interesting tidbits about dative too. Terrific text. Linking Wijesekera here for anyone else looking for it.

@BethL or @Gillian - I think this is a great add to Bhante’s top pinned post in the Resource thread, if either of you think it helpful to add it. Also, A Pali Grammar by Steven Collins, which is still available in paper. :heartbeat:

ETA: ANSWERED IN CLASS. (Tassa is part of a whole clause that’s Genitive absolute - which gives an adversative mood to the subordinate clause.)


Quick question about the tassa in:
Tathā karontass’eva tassa rogo balavā ahosi.

John translated this as: “Despite him making it, the disease became strong.” so I wasn’t sure which clause it connected with.

I initially thought genitive - the illness belonging to the child.
“EVEN MAKING THE REMEDY IN THAT WAY, THE CHILD’S ILLNESS WAS STRONG.”

But if it’s dative, then it goes with the first clause, and results in:
“EVEN MAKING THE REMEDY FOR THE CHILD IN THAT WAY, THE ILLNESS WAS STRONG.”

Do either of these not work on the basis of grammar alone?
If they both can be right, would you go with the the first reading (genitive tassa)?

Thanks, Karuna. I’ll defer to @Gillian on this. :heart:

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I think both grammars ideally would be there.

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Yes, specifically for this verb ācikkhati. Margaret Cone in Vol I of her “A Dictionary of Pāli” says in the entry for this verb " tells, gives information about (something, acc., to someone, gen./dat.)"

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I’m only seeing this post of yours just now, Karuṇā, and I think we answered this fully for you in our lesson a few hours ago.

For the benefit of anyone else reading this forum thread, this sentence is an example of the use of the genitive absolute (see G&K , Lesson XII.4 on p.170).

The main clause of this sentence is Tathā … rogo balavā ahosi. “So … the sickness became stronger.”
And the subordinate clause (here a genitive absolute) is … karontass’eva tassa …, “… despite him doing just that …”

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Hi John! I also just edited my original post to reflect the answer given in class. Thanks so much for taking the time to return to it.

Although, I went with the definition of tathā as “in such a way,” referring to the method of treebark preparation that he was taught and had produced in the two preceding sentences. Which then modifies karontass’eva adverbially. This could still work?

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On another topic, during our class today we had a discussion on pada 3 of the last verse in the selection from the Rāhula sutta (Lesson XII, Readings 2, p.164):
tato mānābhisamayā , which after sandhi is removed breaks down as tato māna-abhisamayā .

The word abhisamayā is, in fact, Ins/Abl/ or Loc case of abhisamaya, and not an absolutive as I first thought. And this word is indeed in the glossary for this set of readings (see G&K p.166). Thus, I would translate as “Thereby, with complete understanding of conceit …”

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I would like to share some Pāli dict data, compatible with GoldenDict, that might be helpful:

  • Pali-English English-Pali Dictionary (Buddhadatta): here nipajjāpesi could be found to be translated as nipajjāpeti “caus. of nipajjati”.
  • PTS (equivalent to dsal.uchicago.edu)
  • pali-db3-pali: (Pāli - Chinese English Vietnamese)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1_tjihYhjKR6QoLnhoGOQmdVl-SAaHqli?usp=sharing

Implemented. I also made a few editorial changes to the list.

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