John Kelly’s Pāli 2025 (G&K) Class 3

Thread for John Kelly’s Pāli 2025 (G&K) Class 3 for the class on March 2nd / 3rd 2025.

Meeting ID: 829 5896 1475
Passcode: anicca

You will need to remain in the “waiting room” until host lets you in.

We will review material from the last lesson and look through G & K Lesson 1 Grammar, then do together in class some of the initial set of exercises.

Homework preparation for this class:

  1. Review Gair and Karunatillake
    • Lesson 1 Grammar (pages 4-11)
  2. Complete Lesson 1 Initial Readings if you haven’t already done so
    • Exercises 3 & 4 (pages 1-2)
  3. Study G & K Lesson 1 Further Readings
    • Glossary (pages 12-13)
  4. Work through Lesson 1 Further Readings and write down your answers (pages 11-12) – and be prepared to read your answers in class when asked

1 Like

Sorry that I missed this class!

Here is my homework for this session:

Exercise 3 translation

Of one who has incorrect views, mendicants, indeed new unskillful qualities are brought forth, and they lead to an abundance of arisen unskillful qualities.

Mendicants, I do not perceive a single other thing by which new skillful qualities are prevented, or by which present skillful qualities decrease, than wrong view.

Of one who has incorrect views, mendicants, indeed new skillful qualities are prevented, and wrong view deteriorates present skillful qualities.

Mendicants, I do not perceive a single other thing by which new unskillful qualities are prevented, or by which present unskilful qualities decrease, than namely right view.

Of one who has right view, mendicants, new unskillful qualities are prevented, and present unskillful qualities decrease.

Exercise 4 translation

A mendicant resolves, exerts effort, arouses energy, prepares the mind, and strives to prevent new vices.

A mendicant resolves, exerts effort, arouses energy, prepares the mind, and strives to give up present vices.

A mendicant resolves, exerts effort, arouses energy, prepares the mind, and strives to bring forth new virtues.

A mendicant resolves, exerts effort, arouses energy, prepares the mind, and strives to stabilize, maintain, grow, mature, develop, and fulfill present virtues.

Further readings 1 translation

Mendicants, I do not see a single thing which thus leads to the confusion and disappearance of the true doctrine other than sloth. Sloth leads to to the confusion and disappearance of true doctrine.

I do not see a single thing, mendicants, which thus leads to the stability, clarification, and continuation of the true doctrine other than diligence. Diligence leads to to the stability, clarification, and continuation of true doctrine.

I do not see a single thing which thus leads to the confusion and disappearance of the true doctrine, mendicants, other than indolence. Indolence leads to to the confusion and disappearance of true doctrine.

I do not see a single thing which thus leads to the stability, clarification, and continuation of the true doctrine other than making effort. Mendicants, making effort leads to the stability, clarification, and continuation of true doctrine.

I do not see a single thing which thus leads to the stability, clarification, and continuation of the true doctrine other than the use of skillful qualities and disuse of unskillful qualities. The use of skillful qualities leads to to the stability, clarification, and continuation of true doctrine.

Further readings 2 translation

I do not see another single form than the form of a woman that thus having overcome a man’s mind, remains. A woman’s form overcomes the mind of a man and remains.

I do not see another single sound than the sound of a woman that thus having overcome a man’s mind, remains. A woman’s sound overcomes the mind of a man and remains.

I do not see another single scent than the scent of a woman that thus having overcome a man’s mind, remains. A woman’s scent overcomes the mind of a man and remains.

I do not see another single taste than the taste of a woman that thus having overcome a man’s mind, remains. A woman’s taste overcomes the mind of a man and remains.

I do not see another single touch than the touch of a woman that thus having overcome a man’s mind, remains. A woman’s touch overcomes the mind of a man and remains.

I do not see another single form than a man’s form that thus having overcome a woman’s mind, remains. A man’s form overcomes the mind of a woman and remains.

I do not see another single sound than a man’s sound that thus having overcome a woman’s mind, remains. A man’s sound overcomes the mind of a woman and remains.

I do not see another single scent than a man’s scent that thus having overcome a woman’s mind, remains. A man’s scent overcomes the mind of a woman and remains.

I do not see another single taste than the taste of a man that thus having overcome a woman’s mind, remains. A man’s taste overcomes the mind of a woman and remains.

I do not see another single touch than the touch of a man that thus having overcome a woman’s mind, remains. A man’s touch overcomes the mind of a woman and remains.

Exercise 4 is a text that I had already begun studying well before joining this class, so perhaps I got a little fast and loose in trying for the most idiomatic rendering. In that one, all the Pali dative nouns are rendered as English infinitive verbs, and I experimented with using “vices” and “virtues” for “pāpakānaṁ akusalānaṁ dhammānaṁ” and “kusalānaṁ dhammānaṁ” respectively, figuring that in context these are to be understood as specifically Buddhist vices and Buddhist virtues.

The other three are fairly literal and mostly follow the glosses given in G&K.

I’ll be sure to look for the recording of the class when you post it.

1 Like

Sorry you missed it too.

If anyone shows up for the class well after I have started and am sharing my screen on Zoom, then I don’t necessarily see that they are waiting in the waiting room to get in. Something for all to keep in mind.

1 Like

Greetings, all Pāli students. It was great to have so many people in class today interested in learning Pāli!

The recording from this session is now available in the usual place, which I will show again here for those who are new https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ohEx8IViGa8g1Kp31s5MBwj4IIQPEy6s?usp=sharing

Now that we have all completed Lesson 1 from the Gair and Karunatillake, here is a copy of my trilinear translations of the exercises
G&K Readings 1 Trilinear.pdf (145.5 KB)
Don’t take any of this as gospel - they are just my translations of the text. When doing your own work on these exercises use your own voice. Hopefully, my use of this trilinear format will help you all understand how the Pāli words combine to reach the final translation.

As I said at the end of class, homework to complete before the next lesson is:

  1. Read through all grammatical material in Lesson 2 (pp. 18-25)
  2. Study the vocabulary for the first set of readings in Lesson 2 (pp.15-17)
  3. Work through this first set of readings (pp.14-15), trying to understand how the Pāli all fits together and making your own translations.
5 Likes

Thanks @johnk, That was a fun video. I really enjoy learning Pali, and am so grateful for all the work you put into teaching us.

Here are my questions/comments. (I pasted part of an example from your trilinear, but the colors didn’t transfer. Sorry. My questions are below it.)

Fellow students: Please feel free to answer, comment, etc…, to any questions or comments.

Regarding:
Lesson 1
Example 3
1st sentence

… Micchādiṭṭhikassa, bhikkhave, anuppannā c’eva akusalā dhammā uppajjanti, uppannā ca akusalā dhammā bhiyyobhāvāya vepullāya saṃvattantīti. (micchā-diṭṭhi-kassa) (bhiyyo-bhāvāya) (ca eva) (saṃvattanti iti)

for wrong-view-person / bhikkhus / unarisen / and just / unskillful / mental states / they arise / arisen / and / unskillful / mental states / to more-becoming / to fullness / they lead (end-quote) …

Your translation: Indeed, bhikkhus, for a person with wrong view unarisen unskillful mental qualities arise, and arisen unskillful mental qualities increase and grow full.*

ONE:
Paraphrasing you (from the video): “‘Dhamma has many meanings, depending on the context. We translate from context.” Could you define context for our purposes? I understand it as anything from the word a sentence is in to the historical and cultural background of the original speaker. So, take translating dhammā as “mental qualities”? What led you to this choice? Sujato, Thanissaro (and I believe Bodhi) usually render it “thing” when the “Nāhaṃ, bhikkhave, aññaṃ ekadhammaṃ pi samanupassāmi,” trope is the immediate contexrt. What was the context here that helped you translate as you “mental quality”? The, “x makes more sense than y" test? Trial and error? And how/when/etc… do you know you have the right or most accurate translation? Is there a right or most accurate translation? And if you know a priori the right or most accurate sense, why translate at all (besides for the sake of fun)?

TWO:
You said something like, “C’eva” means “and just”? I would have never got that from this glossary. How did you know that? I think you said Sujato and Bodhi just leave it out to avoid it coming off hackneyed. Please elaborate.

THREE:
You said something like “Bhiyyobhāvāya” and “vepullāya” are near synonyms? I was thinking more like redundant? Synonym stringing seems more like a choice a poet might make rather than a strict linguist. Does the common belief that the Buddha was a really good poet relate to this? Also, does it relate to the hermeneutic principle of dynamic equivalence? If so, do you think that’s a worthy goal for a translator, and do have advice to help us achieve such an equivalence between the “purely” figurative and the “purely” literal?

Thanks again,
landis

That was a fun video. I really enjoy learning Pali, and am so grateful for all the work you put into teaching us.

Very glad you liked it, @landis.

Dhamma has many meanings

Indeed it does. Have you looked at the multiple-page entry for it in PED? The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

Could you define context for our purposes?

My take is that it means the environment in which a particular word is occurring - the other words and meanings around it (see below for an example); the wider frame in which a particular sutta is being quoted.

What led you to this choice?

Don’t read to much into the translation part of my trilinear document, please. All these answers to the G&K exercises were done many years ago when I was first learning Pāli, and are not necessarily what I’d choose now. I like “mental states” better and that is what I have in the literal translation part, which was added more recently.

I think both Sujato and Bodhi have “thing” for dhamma when it is in the phrase aññaṃ ekadhammaṃ, but use “quality” where dhamma is later used in the sentences - a/kusalā dhammā, etc. In answer to your first question, this illustrates perfectly the idea of context!

You said something like, “C’eva” means “and just”? I would have never got that from this glossary.

The G&K glossary for this exercise (p.2) shows all these words. It states ceva = ca + eva, and ca = and and eva = emphatic particle. So, it is all there. Here’s some more detail on eva from PED: The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

I’m not sure what you are actually asking me in your question THREE. Those with any familiarity with the Pāli Canon would know that the Buddha is very frequently quoted as explaining things with synonyms and/or near synonyms. To me, this seems a good way of really getting a point across.

Hi @johnk,
Sādhu, sādhu, sādhu. :pray:
~l

Hi @johnk and fellow Pali students,

I’ve noticed Sujato rolling his "r"s when he reads Pali outloud. Sometime with quite the flare!

The other language I’ve tried to learn (for the last twenty-five years, including two years of college course work :flushed: :laughing:) Is Spanish. So I’m finding myself occasionally rolling my "r"s with Pali.

Is this allowed? Should I stop?
best,
~l

Roll away to your heart’s content!

2 Likes