John Kelly’s Pāli Reading Group 2025 Session 1

Thread for John Kelly’s Pāli Reading Group 2025 Session 1 (February 9th / 10th 2025).

Meeting ID: 829 5896 1475
Passcode: anicca

You will need to remain in the “waiting room” until host lets you in.

This initial session for the Pāli Reading Group will begin by going through Dīgha Nikaya 22, Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna sutta.

Homework preparation for this class:
Make yourself a copy of the Pāli text from this sutta into your own word processor document where you will each be developing your own translation of this sutta as we go through it in class together.


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Hi John, I’m wrapping up a work call, and may be a few minutes late.
Looking forward to it!

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Hello all. The recording for this Pāli Reading Group session can be found here https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/12_oJ0D-RmrX9jMK2U95bdQH9JHhlTf-_?usp=drive_link

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So sorry I missed today’s class… Was a bit ill and could not wake early to join the class. Last few weeks were a bit busy too. I would like to join the class from next session. If it is alright, can I please have access to go through today’s class? Thank you.

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I noted that in the opening sentence “ekaṁ samayaṁ bhagavā kurūsu viharati kammāsadhammaṁ nāma kurūnaṁ nigamo”, “nigamo” is nominative, not locative.

Some translators broke this into 2 sentences, like Walsh: “Once the Lord was staying among the Kurus. There is a market-town of theirs called Kammāsadhamma.”, with a footnote: “There was nowhere in the town for the Buddha to stay, so he stayed outside, in the jungle: hence the construction ‘There is a market town’ (DA).”

Sujato’s translation: “At one time the Buddha was staying in the land of the Kurus, near the Kuru town named Kammāsadamma.”

On another point, comparing “bhikkhavo” vs “bhikkhave”, according to DPD, besides vocative, bhikkhavo can also be nominative or accusative plural (bhikkhave is only vocative). I found one instance of nominative usage of bhikkhavo in a verse of SN2.24:

Avihaṁ upapannāse,
vimuttā satta bhikkhavo

Sujato’s translation: “Seven mendicants reborn in Aviha have been freed."

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So sorry you have been unwell, Indira, and I hope you feel better soon.
Yes, of course, you can join the group from the next session. It will be good to have you.

In the thread immediately above your message, I put the link for the recordings folder. If you click on that it will trigger a permission request to me, and once I grant access, you’ll be able to get yesterday’s recording and all future ones.

Yes, Trung, it’s an odd paragraph and only really makes sense if broken into two sentences as Walsh did. Thanks for highlighting that.

On another point, comparing “bhikkhavo” vs “bhikkhave”, according to DPD, besides vocative, bhikkhavo can also be nominative or accusative plural (bhikkhave is only vocative)

That is correct and is exactly what Nyānatusita has in his declension table. As I suggested during our session, it is likely that the vocative use for bhikkhavo came from the influence of another dialect. And it is interesting that the only usage I know of as a vocative in that form is in that particular expression when the Buddha is initially addressing the bhikkhus. In your Canon searches were you able to find any other instances of the bhikkhavo vocative form?

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Thank you so much for your kindness (as always). I have requested permission to view the video.
Much Merit to you.
Indira

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Hello @johnk and @nschitrung , here is a list of all “bhikkhavo” I found on Sutta Central search. I have not gone through it yet to search for bhikkhavo vocative form. Instances of “bhikkhavo”

Enjoyed the first Pali Reading Group 2025 immensely. Looking forward to next week. -Rebecca

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From Rebecca’s list (have not gone through all), I found some instances of vocative bhikkhavo outside of āmantesi: “bhikkhavo”ti. But all are in verses, like this one SuttaCentral

'Ye keci agadā loke,
visānaṁ paṭibāhakā;
Dhammāgadasamaṁ natthi,
etaṁ pivatha bhikkhavo’”ti.

“Of all the drugs, in all the world,
The antidotes of poison dire,
Not one equals that Doctrine sweet.
Drink that, O brethren. Drink and live!”’
(T.W. Rhys Davids)

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Ye keci agadā loke,
visānaṁ paṭibāhakā;
Dhammāgadasamaṁ natthi,
etaṁ pivatha bhikkhavo

Good find, Trung.

And in that very same discourse from Milindapañhā, further down, you will find:
Ye keci osadhā loke,
vijjanti vividhā bahū;
Dhammosadhasamaṁ natthi,
etaṁ pivatha bhikkhavo

Whatever medicines are to be found in the world, manifold and various,
There is none equal to the Dhamma medicine.
So drink that, bhikkhus. (my translation)

Note that the Pāli in Milindapañhā is both considerably later in time and geographically separated from that of most of the suttas in the Pāli Canon.

To all of you participating in my Pāli Reading group, I would like to encourage you to build up through these two-weekly sessions with me your own Trilinear translation of DN 22. Here is a document that you can use as an example which covers the Introduction and Section 1.1 of the sutta that we went through in our last lesson:
DN 22 Trilinear to end section 1.1.pdf (83.3 KB)
As I’m sure you know, you can copy the full Pāli text of DN 22 from Sutta Central, just as I did. See this link: SuttaCentral

Before our next session together (on Feb 23/24), please work through sections 1.2 (Postures), 1.3 (Situational Awareness), and 1.4 (The Repulsive).

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I forgot to mention that I haven’t included the free form translation of each line in this example that I created (except for the first line).

In your own documents, of course, you should add your own translation of each line. I mainly wanted to illustrate the idea of doing a word-by-word translation, in the same order as the Pāli words, and, in addition, show how any compounds should be split apart and the same for any external sandhi joining two words that aren’t compounds.

Dear students, I generally can’t make the Reading Group day/time. That said, I hope to make use of the recordings :heart_eyes:

Three interesting tidbits, for me, in the Session 1 reading.

  1. Sumana noted the poetic sense of the town’s name Kammāsadhamma. Apparently, this didn’t go unnoticed by some others! A town name worth rememembering in Buddhist lore.

  2. When I saw ñāyassa = a method (for knowing something),

nī √i

I had recently seen a synonym in MN2 (Stephen’s reading class):

sabbāsavasaṁvarapariyāyaṁ vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi

where pariyāyaṁ also conveys similar meaning – a method. In this case, a method for the restraint of all the taints.

pari √i

So maybe in the former it’s a knowledge method whereas in the latter it’s a kind of physical method? I realize this is total hair-splitting.

  1. On satipaṭṭhāna, re: John’s discussion of the two renderings of the term paṭṭhāna, I recall this small study I posted a few months ago:

For reference, pratiṣṭhā in Sanskrit = to stand firm or be established.

So my query ever since:

Did the Buddha incorporate the fire altar ritual imagery into his sati teaching – that is, did he mean “foundation(s) of mindfulness” because it replaces the fire altar-building ritual.

Whether the root etymology is

upa √ṭhā
or
pa √ṭhā

Again, splitting hairs at the end of the day. It’s just curious to me that paṭṭhāna (regardless of which root, both of which are similar) may have called to mind the fire altar-building ritual for some listeners. Or not! :sweat_smile:

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Hello John,
It is a week late and I somehow thought this session was today. I did not do the homework asked of on the 1st session. As I felt I needed to finish the Pali Primer first. To help me understand. So I kept going with the Pali Primer at my own pace. I am now at question 19 Lesson 7 of the Primer. I have felt some disappointment that I am not able to catch up. It seems I will always be behind. Whilst at the same time I know that I have made a lot of effort. The most I can. And so I can only accept that is the way it is. I don’t have much distractions, no children, no partner, no employment. It seems it must be mainly the way my brain processes information. I am finding that I get the answer wrong - and do not grasp the ordering sometimes. Still, even if I misordered my answer. I grasped the image/meaning of what was being expressed. I would like to keep going. And maybe it is best to check in before the next live class . And see if it will just be too over my head to attend live. If it will be too advanced - then I can watch it when I have reached that point/finished that homework. Thank you.

Hello Moo,
You are posting in the wrong thread here. This is for the reading group for more advanced Pāli students, and you are in the beginner class which started two weeks ago and continues today. Best if you join today’s session - it won’t be too advanced for you at all. Follow this link John Kelly’s Pāli 2025 (G&K) Class 2