Just another brick in the wall

Why do you think that?
In terms of practices that implicitly or explicitly tell nuns that they are inferior, garudhammas and questions of seniority vs. gender - among other things - are also an issue there. And all these small things that Ayya Vimala has mentioned in her post occur with monks from Bodhinyana just as they occur with others.

(This post is not intended to criticize Ajahn Brahm’s tremendous contributions to the revival of bhikkhunis and the building of bhikkhuni monasteries :anjal: - but these are not the focus of the present thread.)

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:astonished::cry::pray:

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Gosh, it is so eye-opening to hear about yet so characteristic of samsara. There are people who support the bhikkhunis out there, just as the Buddha opened the path to them, and as the conditions change in general for women both in Buddhist circles and in the wider global context, so too will attitudes. In the meantime, all I can say is treat yourself with kindfulness and know that your Noble Task is so rare and precious.

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Bhante, this is not about me. This is about the institutionalized discrimination that undermines the Bhikkhuni Sasana. It’s about that same institutionalized discrimination that has caused the Bhikkhuni lineage to die out in the first place.

Just because it is “part of Buddhist culture” does not make it right, nor does it make it “what the Buddha taught” or part of the EBTs. Where in the Vinaya does it say that nuns have to go behind the Samaneras on Pindapata?

I would also rather sit behind my computer and lead a quiet life just coding and meditating and forget about all of this. But how can I not speak up when 3 nuns I know disrobed in just the last month as a direct result and other friends are depressed and even traumatized.

Today I heard for the first time of a Sri Lankan monastery in Illinois where nuns are asked to go on Pindapata with the monks in line of ordination date, not gender. Contrary to popular belief on this forum, this is the only monastery that I know of where this happens, the only other one stopped when it’s abbot left 6 years ago.

I have a deep respect and gratitude for the Ajahns who have helped the nuns to gain full ordination and who help them to build monasteries. But the underlying problems have not yet been addressed and these patterns that have culturally grown are still alive today, even in their monasteries. It is not enough to give nuns a place of their own to keep them out of the monk’s monasteries. By doing so you cut them off from all training and you keep the discrimanatory patterns alive that have culturally grown but are not part of the Vinaya and that are in the end not helpful for anybody, including the monks.

In my opinion we need to have an active dialog between monks and nuns to learn to understand each other and to eradicate these patterns that are detrimental to Buddhist practice.

These discrimanatory practices have their roots in fear of the “other”, the fear of difference and change and they have to be rooted out for us all to be able to grow and develop.

After all, fear is the path to the Dark Side.

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I read Ayya Vimala’s post and feel that there are just no words, really, to respond to what such an excellent person like Ayya must go through day to day with these challenges. The only words that come to mind is the mantra that others have adopted when facing discrimination: “It gets better.” I suppose this mantra is an expression of hope, or faith, that over time, things will get better for Bhikkhunis; that they will enjoy the equality and justice that I know the Buddha would bestow on them were he alive today. Perhaps Mahapajapati is in Pioneertown for a reason: today’s Bhikkhunis truly are pioneers.

I also think of that old technique taught when one has to give a speech to a large audience: “think of the audience sitting there in their knickers.” So maybe, in a similar way, when a Bhikkhuni encounters a discriminatory monk or lay person, she can think of Ayya Kundalakesi. If anyone tries to drag you up a mountain intending to steal your jewels of intellect, accomplishment, or dignity, in your mind push them off the cliff. “Thank you, bhante, for your disrespect, now let me just step back and bow to your ignorance!” A little push, and…
a
a
a
a
h
h
h
plop!

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17 posts were split to a new topic: A distraction

In the most basic terms I must say I find this situation bewildering.
The human samsaric vessel is made up of a range of physical characteristics, height, gender, eye colour, intellect etc etc. All have experienced all of these variations - as practising Buddhists we know that our body is not me or mine… So the sex organs of a body are surely totally irrelevent…

I can’t accept that such a big deal is made out of discriminating over a cluster of cells that make up human bodies…

As Buddha says, the rituals have NO inherent meaning - they are not to be ‘worshipped’.

Pragmatically I can understand the origin of this problem within samsara… but the aim should be to overcome this, not to propagate this.

Though it is now culturally entrenched - I cannot accept this as constituting ‘right view’, and it hinders the N8fp for all beings. It hinders us by continually drawing awareness to our bodies… continually thwarting detachment by making the sex organs a determinant of how one must practice… surely this is the absolute opposite of what is helpful.

I prefer to think of nuns and monks as a-sexual… and everything should be done to detach from such gross attachments as male and female. (I apply this in my own life, but it is easiest in seclusion, where no-one imposes or forces me to witness gender discrimination)

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I’d like to see the 8- and 10-precept nuns really start to “own it”, if you know what I mean.

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Foremost to thank and appreciate Ayya @Vimala for having the courage and evident sense of purpose in discussing these matters. It’s good to see such discussions especially in a compassionate, respectful, and considerate environment such as this we’re blessed with here in D&D [putting aside of crouse the unkind responses!].

I just want to point out something that seems absent in your thought, Ayya:

The majority of monks are not really far removed from where you are; that is, most monks are just as well troubled by various forms of difficulties associated with the monastic life, and these problems are as much serious and troublesome to them as the troubles you mentioned are to nuns. And i’m not saying this to downplay the significance of what you are talking about here, nor to deny that the experience is far more difficult to nuns than it is to monks - but i’m saying this to demonstrate that there is nothing that “monks” can do as an abstract category of people; most of us are powerless, dependent, and coping too; and we are in no position to “change” things even for our own benefit, (& monks disrobe because of such hardships too, all the time!). So I would ask you to put that in your consideration while pondering this issue. It is not an exclusive problem of gender, rather an inclusive problem of being conditioned humans living in a conditioned collective existence! With all its established cultures and institutions.

You will agree that whenever culture and institutionalism are involved, problems tend to be very difficult to solve. Yet, most of us, not out of mana or self-obsession (as some might think in this particular thread), but rather out of a sense of conscience, will experience such situations that we just can’t accept, or in relation to which we cannot remain silent. What is it that will stimulate the conscience in such a way will differ from one person to another, according to the experience and cultivation of each; but in all cases, we all have to come to terms with this agony, either by battling with it actively, outwardly, and publicly, or just inwardly and silently, or by transcending it altogether. It is very difficult for one person to tell another what is worth or not worth fighting for; or whether fighting for anything is right or wrong, or good or bad. Though it is notable that the “worldly/secular elimination of suffering and incorrectness” seems to have become the theme or zeitgeist of our present times, with groups of people on opposite moral and conceptual sides accusing and condemning each other, as more and more people are becoming avarice to suffering while at the same time less and less people endeavour to respond to it with any understanding or wisdom, but only through emotional reactionariness and delusional abstractions! What is sure however is that life is exceedingly limited in duration; and whatever one may possibly accomplish by way of mundane achievement, that will not last. There has never been, and will never be, final mundane solutions to mundane problems! This is my conviction, and I believe it certainly applies to our monastic reality!

However this doesn’t mean to ignore problems or act as if they don’t exist; and that is why I appreciate very much threads like that here. I don’t know if what I just said is helpful or meaningful in anyway, I was only expressing myself. If I am to envisage solutions or advices, I could only find them in my own experience and not anywhere from without that; so please forgive me if they don’t seem to fit with what you think is moral, correct, or what works out for you.

  1. To make informed decisions in the first place, to examine what waters it is in which one is for about to wade, and, should one judges that it is clean, or unclean but fine, or unclean and not fine, or even that it is a rotten swamp - in whatever case, one’s subsequent venturing forward or withdrawing backward must be based on intuitive discernment, rather than the kind of hopes and dreams similar to those one develops, out of thin air, upon falling in love! It took me four years, four years of search and examination, before I finally found a suitable context of ordination. And mind you, it was not suitable or correct “in abstraction” or “in itself”, but only in so far as I judged that I will be personally able to manage it. And after all that caution and down-to-earth realism, I still suffered and was exposed to harm, but luckily with enough help from others and faith in myself, I moved on; and i’m here right now, and now I’m much more experienced and confident, and quite optimistic, in so far as my own renunciate life and experience is concerned. I have learnt that, so long I am able to evade such hardships that are overwhelming or destructively intense, this kind of coping is generally helpful, and it has contributed positively to my humbling and maturity. But what i’m trying to say is that one certainly should learn quickly to stop being “surprised” at the various hardships along the path; this is the only way one can respond to them with wisdom and equanimity, I believe. Here’s a renunciate motto: Expect all hardships and their advent becomes equal to their absence!!

  2. The greatest lesson I learnt however is that the good monastics I met, and many they are, respond to such institutional or cultural problems over which they have no control not by battling with them, but by “helping each other” in every way they can, and in such a way that I have never experienced as a worldly person. To me, this is an effective and sufficient solution, a solution to be sought, a solution to be developed and expanded, a solution to make up for one’s monastic troubles, a solution to crush the ego and evoke humility, and a solution to bring tears from the eyes when later remembered!

  3. To bring the heart to expand freely and peacefully within the sphere of what is already possible, but not further into what should be possible! The words of Buddha resonate: “Become islands unto yourselves.” I pondered this utterance at length and I wondered why is it so effective in evoking the perception of calm, freedom and contentment in the hearts of listeners? It is the image of a secluded, faraway, unreachable “island”, surrounded by the vast ocean from all sides, standing in its place, not seeking to go here or there (there is no where to go, everywhere is just, ocean, samsara!), not minding the relentless waves as they bite on its edges; a picture of unbreakable stability and immutability, yet peaceful and humble, and wise, the island stands there, extended, peacefully and freely, just within that scope of what makes its free and peaceful existence possible, but no further!

I believe this is the finest description of renunciation, I believe it applies with perfect equality to man and woman, and I believe the wise words of Venerable Sariputta apply today just as they did back then:

Pabbajjā kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkarā.
Pabbajitena kho, āvuso, abhirati dukkarā.

:pray:

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3 posts were merged into an existing topic: A distraction

Thank you for opening the conversation Ayya @Vimala and thank you for joining it Bhante @anon61506839.

:anjal:

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Is it time to start naming and shaming? I’m thinking of monasteries and maybe even individual monks? Let’s call this what it is. Discrimination seems too mild a word for what you describe here - what this is, is bullying. And it appears to be systemic and systematic. If a monk (or indeed monastery) actually believes in the legitimacy of the Bhikkhuni Sangha then let them show it by their actions.

Thank you for beginning to open up these behaviours for all to see. A semi formal register of offenses against normal decency, with responses from the offending monks/monasteries, would help me (a lay supporter) to decide where the little support that I can offer should go, and may hopefully begin to change these insidious behaviours. It would also highlight to the charity commissions in some countries where these religious charities are falling short of their social obligations to remain tax exempt.

Thank you once again Ayya. Let’s tear down the wall.

Is there anything practical that you can think of that would take us to the second phase?

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Not sure about that Venerable sister
Because in my experience it was fear and greed that brought me to stop, and when I looked back i couldn’t find anything wrong because the sum of my fear and mental pain was exactly enough to make this cycle stop! - and then i could see my own shadow dispensary under sufficient light in the perfect angle … gone gone, and good bye! :wink:

there are no dark side, there are just this! And that the gooood news :anjal:

I hope and wish that stillness does it for you as for me!

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I think Mat’s absolutely spot on in this detail. We’re talking about a deep cultural shift, in a certain respect I think it just has to unravel as it does over the full course of time it takes. That’s not at all to promote a casual attitude of leaving everything to sort itself out. Each of the steps need to be taken and each of the encouragements (to new conversations, new attitudes, and new behaviours) need to be made; you just can’t control, or force how it goes all that much.

I do, however, feel that at one point or other it is simply an inevitability that we’ll end up somewhere we don’t even need to be thinking about ‘phases’ with respect to this issue and it will just be an unfortunate, but inspiring historical detail … so long as enough of us now (nuns, monks, layfolk - or blobby masses of suffering as I prefer to think of these groups collectively) keep enough faith and put in enough effort for a better situation to manifest.

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Agreed. That’s Dhamma! :slight_smile: But you can put in place underlying causes and conditions that help the process to go in a particular direction at greater speed, right? In fact, doing that is part of the process.

Yep, that’s what I am asking Mat about. He is very experienced in this area I think. If we can psychologically nudge people in the right (i.e. non-bullying) direction then that is to the benefit of all - the bullied and the bullies alike I think. I know how to do this with little kids to some effect, but I am less certain how this would work with grown adult Buddhist monastics.

That will be the last phase :wink:

:slight_smile:

Sadhu!

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:anjal:

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I think we must seek to get to the last phase, but as Aminah says it will take time. For any relationship to change there will be a ‘threat’ and a ‘surface break’, in the relationship. Then the wound heals over the new relationship that is formed. Then there is another break etc until the ideal (or close to) relationship is formed. I’m talking in general but also about the relationship between Bhikkhuni’s and bhikkkhus, as well. Women’s ordination was the big step. There’s further details that need resolving- in the process it is important not to give into our lesser emotions and potentially alienate those who helped you all this time. It is important to take leadership and change what needs changing. Independence yes, but women and men can’t thrive without a curated degree of mutual interaction. Everything’s new so we are finding out these aspects for the first time and will be there and useful for generations to come. Some of this could be thought of as ‘growing pains’.

Bhikkhuni’s and others will speak up against initial rejection; in doing so they could be seen as not being wallflowers hence the ‘overvaluation’ of the second phase will fade. I might add it is right and healthy that Bhikkhunis are see properly, as the expression goes, ‘warts and all’. That is the way to throw off the subjugation that one may have agreed to have in place, on oneself, so far. All this of course within a framework of responsibility to the layity and others who support one’s cause. Breaking and re-making relationships is a way forward. Finally, when we get to a functional situation this set-up can become a model and a pilot for how things can work out elsewhere.

With metta

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I understand the idea that a fully enlightened being would no longer suffer any distress due to being on the receiving end of the routine practices of degradation, subjugation and discrimination that are used to enforce worldly power relations and hierarchies. A fully enlightened being would also experience no cravings for veneration and esteem from others. No doubt, a true Buddhist saint wouldn’t experience the slightest bother over these things, just as they would experience no misery from being beaten, robbed and abused. (Dhp 3-4). After all, the Buddha said the saint’s equanimity wouldn’t be disturbed even by being sawed in half! (MN21)

However, the sangha was created as a way of life conducive to the practices leading to the achievement of awakening, not as a setting in which it is assumed that awakening has already occurred. And the Buddha rejected those extreme ascetic disciplines that are based on inflicting pains above and beyond those that occur naturally, so that one has something even more painful to overcome. The Buddhist path is based on secluding oneself, as far as is practically possible, from the grossest worldly pains, and then working with the dukkha that still arises even after one has thus secluded oneself.

So I can see no justification for traditions that arbitrarily impose unnecessary forms of suffering on the members of some classes of seekers of enlightenment, especially forms of suffering that are not imposed on others. If, for example, and notwithstanding the reflections above about being sawed in half, members of the sangha were divided into groups based on skin color, and the members of some of the groups were subjected to lashings, cutting with saw blades, or degrading segregation, subaltern status and withholding of veneration - or even untouchability - that the members of other groups didn’t experience, we would have no trouble recognizing the unwholesome and unwarranted nature of these arrangements.

Participation in unwholesome discriminatory and subordinating customs is not just bad for the person experiencing the discrimination and subordination, but for the one carrying it out as well. These practices inflict harm, and thus defile the minds of a person striving for unspotted harmlessness. They are bad for the laity too, who have to sit and watch these theatrical displays of ritualized subjugation.

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If it is so little why bother about it. Again this demonstrates as the inferiority complex. Perhaps these are issues such as rules relating to using money.

Dear Ayya @Vimala
I’m sadden to know what nuns have to go through! But as others have said, change is happening, please be patient :slightly_smiling_face:.
I don’t know what you’ve seen or experienced nor do I know what are the monastic rules at Bodhinyana or at other places. I can only share with you what we had seen and witnessed while in Bodhinyana & Dhammasara Monastery last year. Here are just a few points to show there’re no discrimination at all, and maybe we should only focus on these positive points and forget about things that discourage us:

-The weekly teaching at Bhodhinyana is for monks & nuns. But the nuns decided to come only every other week, and the rest of the time they listen to the recording. Also, monthly, Ajahn Brahmali goes to Dhamasara to teach nuns.

-When the nuns arrived at Bodhinyana for Wednesday teaching, we saw that they would have tea and if they have something to ask/talk to the monks they would simply do so. During the talk, facing speaker, monks would sit on the left and nuns on the right. Behind them would be lay guests in similar fashion. As for nuns having to sit lower than monks we haven’t seen yet. For Friday night talk at Dhammaloka, whenever nuns decide to attend the talk they would sit at the same level as monks. Another detail just to show how Ajahn Brahm has absolutely no discrimination whatsoever toward the nuns. At the retreat in Jhana Grove, I witnessed a couple of time that Ajahn Brahm let a junior nun lead the morning & evening chanting.

-One occasion there was an interfaith meeting at Dhammasara, we were allowed to attend and saw that everybody: monks, nuns, priests….sit at the same table. Also, before and after the “conference” we saw monks and nuns talked to each other’s in a very friendly way. An interesting detail to note, when we asked Ajahn Brahm permission to attend but he said we should really ask the nuns since the meeting takes place at Dhammasara.

-On Pindapata, we haven’t seen monks and nuns on alms round at Bodhinyana but at Dhammasara we once saw a visiting monk from Bodhinyana took place according to seniority and placed himself so during Pindapata.

-At Bodhinyana & Dhammasara, monks & nuns only talk to each other when they have something to say. I believe they’re encouraged to restraint from chit chat and have limited access to internet (which is very good in my opinion). So, in general they don’t talk unnecessary to each other’s and not just only between monks & nuns.

I don’t know about nun touching tea-bag box and have to re-offer to monks. Sometime it’s just silly lay people acting that way and the monks and nuns did not bother to tell them anything because it’s unimportant. One time, at lunch time at Dhammasara, a nun came to the kitchen to “receive food”. After she finished “touching” every single plate on the table, including the soup. I thought it would be good for nuns to have hot soup so I took the bowl of soup to reheat it before taking it to the “nun’s dining room”. A lady in the kitchen said we have to re-offer the nun this soup. I was like…what? I offered it already, I just reheated it, why do I have to offer it again? I looked at the nun in disbelief, she calmly said it’s not a problem but still she’ll “receive it again”. You see, sometime it’s the lay people. I may be wrong here but is there a Vinaya covering this sort of incident?

Also, I don’t think it’s discriminatory to have separate monastery for monks and nuns. Going forth means learning and training on the path. Obstacles, desires and temptations are surely minefield for one to avoid. As one is on training, the less of the distractions would be beneficial to both monks and nuns. Not discrimination.

As for the fear of the “other”, it’s just my personal opinion, if monks avoiding nuns or females in general, perhaps we should see or understand may be these monks knowing their defilement and for them avoidance would be best course of action. I remember the story of venerable Ajahn Tate & Ajahn Chah, when facing with temptation (they were not enlighten at that time) they choose to avoid or “runaway”. For me that’s wisdom.

The life of a renunciant is very hard! I heard the rate of disrobing for monks at Bodhinyana (and other monasteries as well) is very high, especially for those under five rains, I believe it’s closed to 90%. My heart shank when I heard this. That is why, Ayya, any monk or nun who seriously wants to practice, who has the strength to remain in monastic life is worthy of revere and worthy of support.

I totally trust in Ajahn Chah’s teaching “If you do good, the result will be good”.

I wish, from the bottom of my heart, all the right conditions to practice for you and for all monks and nuns who wish to pursuit the noble path.
:anjal:

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