I think we must seek to get to the last phase, but as Aminah says it will take time. For any relationship to change there will be a ‘threat’ and a ‘surface break’, in the relationship. Then the wound heals over the new relationship that is formed. Then there is another break etc until the ideal (or close to) relationship is formed. I’m talking in general but also about the relationship between Bhikkhuni’s and bhikkkhus, as well. Women’s ordination was the big step. There’s further details that need resolving- in the process it is important not to give into our lesser emotions and potentially alienate those who helped you all this time. It is important to take leadership and change what needs changing. Independence yes, but women and men can’t thrive without a curated degree of mutual interaction. Everything’s new so we are finding out these aspects for the first time and will be there and useful for generations to come. Some of this could be thought of as ‘growing pains’.
Bhikkhuni’s and others will speak up against initial rejection; in doing so they could be seen as not being wallflowers hence the ‘overvaluation’ of the second phase will fade. I might add it is right and healthy that Bhikkhunis are see properly, as the expression goes, ‘warts and all’. That is the way to throw off the subjugation that one may have agreed to have in place, on oneself, so far. All this of course within a framework of responsibility to the layity and others who support one’s cause. Breaking and re-making relationships is a way forward. Finally, when we get to a functional situation this set-up can become a model and a pilot for how things can work out elsewhere.
With metta
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I understand the idea that a fully enlightened being would no longer suffer any distress due to being on the receiving end of the routine practices of degradation, subjugation and discrimination that are used to enforce worldly power relations and hierarchies. A fully enlightened being would also experience no cravings for veneration and esteem from others. No doubt, a true Buddhist saint wouldn’t experience the slightest bother over these things, just as they would experience no misery from being beaten, robbed and abused. (Dhp 3-4). After all, the Buddha said the saint’s equanimity wouldn’t be disturbed even by being sawed in half! (MN21)
However, the sangha was created as a way of life conducive to the practices leading to the achievement of awakening, not as a setting in which it is assumed that awakening has already occurred. And the Buddha rejected those extreme ascetic disciplines that are based on inflicting pains above and beyond those that occur naturally, so that one has something even more painful to overcome. The Buddhist path is based on secluding oneself, as far as is practically possible, from the grossest worldly pains, and then working with the dukkha that still arises even after one has thus secluded oneself.
So I can see no justification for traditions that arbitrarily impose unnecessary forms of suffering on the members of some classes of seekers of enlightenment, especially forms of suffering that are not imposed on others. If, for example, and notwithstanding the reflections above about being sawed in half, members of the sangha were divided into groups based on skin color, and the members of some of the groups were subjected to lashings, cutting with saw blades, or degrading segregation, subaltern status and withholding of veneration - or even untouchability - that the members of other groups didn’t experience, we would have no trouble recognizing the unwholesome and unwarranted nature of these arrangements.
Participation in unwholesome discriminatory and subordinating customs is not just bad for the person experiencing the discrimination and subordination, but for the one carrying it out as well. These practices inflict harm, and thus defile the minds of a person striving for unspotted harmlessness. They are bad for the laity too, who have to sit and watch these theatrical displays of ritualized subjugation.
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If it is so little why bother about it. Again this demonstrates as the inferiority complex. Perhaps these are issues such as rules relating to using money.
Dear Ayya @Vimala
I’m sadden to know what nuns have to go through! But as others have said, change is happening, please be patient 
.
I don’t know what you’ve seen or experienced nor do I know what are the monastic rules at Bodhinyana or at other places. I can only share with you what we had seen and witnessed while in Bodhinyana & Dhammasara Monastery last year. Here are just a few points to show there’re no discrimination at all, and maybe we should only focus on these positive points and forget about things that discourage us:
-The weekly teaching at Bhodhinyana is for monks & nuns. But the nuns decided to come only every other week, and the rest of the time they listen to the recording. Also, monthly, Ajahn Brahmali goes to Dhamasara to teach nuns.
-When the nuns arrived at Bodhinyana for Wednesday teaching, we saw that they would have tea and if they have something to ask/talk to the monks they would simply do so. During the talk, facing speaker, monks would sit on the left and nuns on the right. Behind them would be lay guests in similar fashion. As for nuns having to sit lower than monks we haven’t seen yet. For Friday night talk at Dhammaloka, whenever nuns decide to attend the talk they would sit at the same level as monks. Another detail just to show how Ajahn Brahm has absolutely no discrimination whatsoever toward the nuns. At the retreat in Jhana Grove, I witnessed a couple of time that Ajahn Brahm let a junior nun lead the morning & evening chanting.
-One occasion there was an interfaith meeting at Dhammasara, we were allowed to attend and saw that everybody: monks, nuns, priests….sit at the same table. Also, before and after the “conference” we saw monks and nuns talked to each other’s in a very friendly way. An interesting detail to note, when we asked Ajahn Brahm permission to attend but he said we should really ask the nuns since the meeting takes place at Dhammasara.
-On Pindapata, we haven’t seen monks and nuns on alms round at Bodhinyana but at Dhammasara we once saw a visiting monk from Bodhinyana took place according to seniority and placed himself so during Pindapata.
-At Bodhinyana & Dhammasara, monks & nuns only talk to each other when they have something to say. I believe they’re encouraged to restraint from chit chat and have limited access to internet (which is very good in my opinion). So, in general they don’t talk unnecessary to each other’s and not just only between monks & nuns.
I don’t know about nun touching tea-bag box and have to re-offer to monks. Sometime it’s just silly lay people acting that way and the monks and nuns did not bother to tell them anything because it’s unimportant. One time, at lunch time at Dhammasara, a nun came to the kitchen to “receive food”. After she finished “touching” every single plate on the table, including the soup. I thought it would be good for nuns to have hot soup so I took the bowl of soup to reheat it before taking it to the “nun’s dining room”. A lady in the kitchen said we have to re-offer the nun this soup. I was like…what? I offered it already, I just reheated it, why do I have to offer it again? I looked at the nun in disbelief, she calmly said it’s not a problem but still she’ll “receive it again”. You see, sometime it’s the lay people. I may be wrong here but is there a Vinaya covering this sort of incident?
Also, I don’t think it’s discriminatory to have separate monastery for monks and nuns. Going forth means learning and training on the path. Obstacles, desires and temptations are surely minefield for one to avoid. As one is on training, the less of the distractions would be beneficial to both monks and nuns. Not discrimination.
As for the fear of the “other”, it’s just my personal opinion, if monks avoiding nuns or females in general, perhaps we should see or understand may be these monks knowing their defilement and for them avoidance would be best course of action. I remember the story of venerable Ajahn Tate & Ajahn Chah, when facing with temptation (they were not enlighten at that time) they choose to avoid or “runaway”. For me that’s wisdom.
The life of a renunciant is very hard! I heard the rate of disrobing for monks at Bodhinyana (and other monasteries as well) is very high, especially for those under five rains, I believe it’s closed to 90%. My heart shank when I heard this. That is why, Ayya, any monk or nun who seriously wants to practice, who has the strength to remain in monastic life is worthy of revere and worthy of support.
I totally trust in Ajahn Chah’s teaching “If you do good, the result will be good”.
I wish, from the bottom of my heart, all the right conditions to practice for you and for all monks and nuns who wish to pursuit the noble path.
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It appears nuns in Bodhinyana are already breaking the Vinaya rules!!
I believe Ayya Vimala was referring to problems of contact happening independently of the issue of monastic separation. But I agree with your perspective on the utility of such separation, at least from the experiential perspective of most monks I know. And not just nuns but very often women in general misinterpret the withdrawal of monks from them as a sign of dislike or aversion, although it is only, as you note, a sign of restraint, humility, and sincere recognition of their own limitations.
Interestingly, I read recently that, given the present outcry against sexual harassment, separation between man and woman is beginning to happen in work places even in secular settings, such as government offices and commercial businesses. It strikes me as a vivid example of the human condition: Neither capable of renunciation nor content with the world! Seeking a world without tilakkhana where none exists. Fighting off the trillion-fold symptoms of suffering while leaving the single cause untouched. Resorting to three hundred thousand million temporal means to eradicate three unchanging features of all conditioned existence.
The Buddha says the gate is wide open, out of the prison and unto Nibbana; yet it’s so difficult to escape!!! So mysterious, so puzzling, is this human condition of bondage!
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As a lay woman, as a person familar with persons rationalizing breaking rules over handling money entrusted for purpose, with mixed religious beliefs and utterly worldly desire, perhaps it will be helpful to read: it is not little. Money is a symbol of time and effort, a distorted one, but that is deep in it. So the offense is in some ways an expression of using other people and their time. Not a little thing.
Honestly, i have to laugh, every time i run across the claims that breaking small rules about money handling don’t matter; for i saw it when i participated in audits, of corporations and non profits, and it was almost always an initial clue of worse. Rationalizations are very powerful.
My experience in that area was small sample sizes, but as it happens, every criminal infraction i happened on was by a religious fundamentalist (christian in those cases, but fundamentalism seems to be pretty much the same regardless of flavor). Belief that worldly interests, and conflicts of interest, could be excused if intention was religiously motivated. It seems just another form of magical thinking to me.
The appearance even of impropriety breaks the heart or energy of laity and anyone who has to clean up the mess. Better to disrobe than do that imo. It’s just joining another sangha in sangha after all; quite honorable.
@SarathW1 , what is your trip exactly? Your rhetoric radiates with the same conservative mindset found in many faiths where a frightening sense of ‘sacredness’ is projected upon the ‘unshakable’ word of ‘God’ in scriptures. Just because the Vinaya is written down, doesn’t mean it hasn’t got issues and that by reviewing it to see what is compassionate, wholesome and useful isn’t some form of blasphemy as your words seem to imply. If the The Great Bald One was here today and some of these troubling elements in the Vinaya were put to him with question, I’m pretty sure he’d have the sense and compassion to ditch what doesn’t do humans in the monastic order any good.
These are simply words on a page, words on a page that evolved like any other set of texts or dogma over a very long period of time. They are not a supernatural script that miraculously appeared in the sky by some all knowing moral entity. And questioning them or opening a discussion to refine them will not rip the fabric of reality and existence.
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No need to get upset about it.
It is ok to break minor rules.
So anyone is free to decide what are minor rules are.
The way I understand minor rules are decided by the individuals, not as a group.
What I see here is individuals who wish to break minor rules are trying to get others to join as well.
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As a historian nicely put it conservatism ''is an attitude of opposition to disruptive change in the social, economic, legal, religious, political, or cultural order…" The distinguishing mark of this conservatism is the fear of change.
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@Gabriel Nicely put. Fear of change within a tradition that hopes to cultivate an acceptance of ‘Anicca’ is quite amusing.
I was recently reading ‘The Rebel’ by Albert Camus, and came across this line which has stuck with me:
“The most elementary of rebellion, paradoxically, expresses an aspiration to order.”
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Which is also the case in our discussion I think (trying to establish a new order that improves spiritual practice). Yet, there is a very necessary conservative element in Buddhism as well. After all there was one perfected being with the proclamation of Dhamma. The system doesn’t work really well if everything was open for discussion because people felt “to change things every now and then”. But I think we can agree that the fear of change (or an irrational aversion against it) is probably not a good counselor.
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Ayya @Vimala
I am sorry that it appears I misinterpreted your concerns.
Can you tell us in brief what are the systemic problems for nuns?
Just make a list in point form so we can really understand what is your concerns are.
For instance. - Not enough housing for nuns etc.
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@SarathW1, it might not be clear to you, but your posts on Vinaya are coming across quite crass/insensitive. If I were you I would stick to the Dhamma posts- like the Nama Rupa post you initiated- thank you for that post. It was quite a helpful.
with metta
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There seems to be a very good reason to let the wall builders know how we feel - in no uncertain terms. Of course, we only have maintenance workers these days. They say: don’t blame us, we didn’t build the wall! Sorry, not good enough - tear it down! Don’t worry the sun will still come up tomorrow on a far brighter day. It could increase the relevance of Buddhism and benefit so many suffering beings. We don’t believe in cruelty in Buddhism - say it loud and clear!
Mr Ajahn, tear down this wall - every single brick must go! Why not a progressive ‘Buddhist Council’ - and the formation of a progressive monastic alliance (post discrimination)?
Agree.
I am continually attracted to unwholesome activities even though I try hard to keep away from them. Thank you for the reminder.
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Dear Van, I asked a long-time monk this question and the monk explained that an incident had happened in the past that a layperson accidentally gave a ‘wrong’ dish to a monk, he/she then took it back, but the monk thought it was given to him (as he/she had offered it to him earlier), so he ate it. And this upset the layperson as well as breaking the vinaya regarding stealing. So, the rule says that once a layperson touches it again, it needs to be re-offered to make clear that it is really for the Sangha.
In the end, it’s about making things clear and obvious. I have been lucky to host a Bhikkhuni a couple times, and I always made it clear what I offered her so as to help her avoid breaking the vinaya.
I totally agree with you here. Having stayed at Bodhinyana several times, I can say that monks don’t want to talk to women. At first, I thought that they didn’t give us hoots, but later I came to understand their situation.
One thing that people tend to forget is that wearing yellow robes doesn’t make one enlightened and freed from defilement. Many monks are aware of their weaknesses and deal with them their own way. We should respect that.
To be honest, even as a woman, I’ve found a few nuns at Dhammasara very attractive. They are not only good nuns but also are simply physically beautiful. Some have very beautiful smiles. Some have eyes that are so bright and happy and you just want to be near them. Imagine what a man (who happens to wear robes) would feel when they have to converse with these lovely nuns.
Another issue I wish to point out as a feminist and a Bhikkhuni supporter is that when some nuns or Bhikkhuni supporters demand the monks, the laypeople and the society to do things to make their life easier, I can’t help feeling as if I were being made to feel guilty: I ‘owed’ them and ‘had to’ help them. It is an unpleasant feeling.
I admire Ajahn Brahm as his teachings have helped me so much, so I can’t help giving excuses on his behalf (though he doesn’t need it!). What I have seen since 2009 is that he has been being demanded to do this and that for nuns, and if he fails to do a single thing, he is criticised.
I have known some nuns who brave difficulties in their monastic lives, are ‘easily satisfied’, and are at peace. These nuns are truly inspiring. On the other hand, I have seen some nuns critical of most things around them and soon leave the robes. I can’t help wondering whether braving difficulties is part of the obstacles preventing one from finding peace and enlightenment.
Of course, as Buddhists, we should support the Sangha and those who are inspired to take the robes, be they male or female, by trying to help provide them with requisites and conducive environment for their practice.
Warmest metta to both monks and nuns,
Dheerayupa
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Found this while doing search for our Facebook Page:
“Whenever you have feelings of love or hate for anything whatsoever, these will be your aides and partners in building parami. The Buddha-Dhamma is not to be found in moving forwards, nor in moving backwards, nor in standing still. This, Sumedho, is your place of non-abiding.”
— Ajahn Chah’s letter to Ajahn Sumedho, as recounted by Ajahn Amaro
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If a monastic is not aware that something doesn’t belong to them and take it this is not considered stealing according to vinaya.
As much as I am aware, this rule of re-offering is not in the vinaya but has come into tradition in some Buddhist countries, I think particularly in Thailand, only later.
The way I have been told this rule (I don’t remember in which monastery) was not that food has to be re-offered if a layperson accidentally touches it , but if a female accidentally touches it, and this includes also female members of the Sangha. And it is related to the custom that females have to offer food to a monk only via a receiving cloth as to avoid a direct contact—which is also not from the vinaya.
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