Good Friends/Kalyanamittas: A Personal Ad :dharmawheel:

Who are not into yoga and have half a brain? :laughing:

3 Likes

www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/social-media-affect-math-dunbar-number-friendships/amp

  • groups can extend to five hundred, the acquaintance level, and to fifteen hundred, the absolute limit—the people for whom you can put a name to a face.
  • The best known, a hundred and fifty, is the number of people we call casual friends—the people, say, you’d invite to a large party. (In reality, it’s a range: a hundred at the low end and two hundred for the more social of us.)
  • From there, through qualitative interviews coupled with analysis of experimental and survey data, Dunbar discovered that the number grows and decreases according to a precise formula, roughly a “rule of three.”
  • The next step down, fifty, is the number of people we call close friends—perhaps the people you’d invite to a group dinner. You see them often, but not so much that you consider them to be true intimates.
  • Then there’s the circle of fifteen: the friends that you can turn to for sympathy when you need it, the ones you can confide in about most things.
  • The most intimate Dunbar number, five, is your close support group. These are your best friends (and often family members).
  • While the group sizes are relatively stable, their composition can be fluid. Your five today may not be your five next week; people drift among layers and sometimes fall out of them altogether.

The main point: ideally, I would like to get to a point where almost all, if not all (whether it is 5, 15, 50, 150, 500, or 1,500) of my associates are relatively true kalyanamittas. I.e. try to find and sustain associations with those who are already committed to a study and practice of the Dhamma-Vinaya, independent of me.

I would like this because I think this would be most suitable, beneficial, and fruitful for me (and hopefully others too) in the long-run even though being able to develop such a group to such a degree seems extremely difficult.

1 Like

One may also associate with the kalyanamitta in all of us. The Buddha in me bows to the Buddha in you. Knowledge of suffering is that first Noble Truth, the one that joins us all.

1 Like

Yes, a common enemy, the common problem.

How do you mean?

I think I get what you mean, but I am not sure. Can you elaborate?

1 Like

Good friends (Kalyāṇamitta) are the whole of the spiritual life.

SN3.18:4.3: Good friends, companions, and associates are the whole of the spiritual life.

Yet as we wear away greed, hate and delusion, we can’t really be greedy about spiritual friends. And it harms us to hate non-spiritual folks. And we certainly shouldn’t waste all our time deciding whether someone is worthy of spiritual friendship. So we end up with a bit of a quandary about how to relate to others.

This is where ethics steps in to aid and support us. MN8 goes into a lot of detail about ethics and lists 44 things to practice. Here are the first five:

MN8:12.2: ‘Others will be cruel, but here we will not be cruel.’
MN8:12.3: ‘Others will kill living creatures, but here we will not kill living creatures.’
MN8:12.4: ‘Others will steal, but here we will not steal.’
MN8:12.5: ‘Others will be unchaste, but here we will not be unchaste.’
MN8:12.6: ‘Others will lie, but here we will not lie.’

What’s remarkable about these 44 perspectives is their universality. It is the way we treat our spiritual friends and the whole world. Let the Buddha in me bow to the Buddha in you, the non-cruel in me bow to the non-cruel in you, the non-killer in me bow to the non-killer in you, etc. And in this gentle, deep manner, we treat all as our spiritual friends:

AN3.63:8.5: I meditate spreading a heart full of love to one direction, and to the second, and to the third, and to the fourth. In the same way above, below, across, everywhere, all around, I spread a heart full of love to the whole world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will.

In this way we practice the heart’s release by love, on the way to the third liberation and further…

SN46.54:12.8: The apex of the heart’s release by love is the beautiful, I say, for a mendicant who has not penetrated to a higher freedom.

5 Likes

Beautifully said :relieved:

4 Likes

Sadhu. Sadhu. Sadhu.
Everyone is worthy of our lovingkindness.

3 Likes

Does this mean that everyone is a kalyannamitta?

Has the Buddha or Sangha used this kind of phrasing before? I am curious where this kind of phrasing comes from because I don’t think I have come across these in the early sources.

What do you mean “greedy about spiritual friends”?
Is even looking for spiritual friends considered being greedy for them? :thinking:
How can one find them if one does not look and search?

I agree. Any form of hatred is harmful.

It seems that the Buddha did advise beings to be discerning about evaluating whether someone is worthy of spiritual friendship in at least one place:

Thus, I wish wish to prioritize associating with beings in the following way:

  1. superior to me in terms of mental development
  2. similar to me in terms of mental development
  3. inferior to me in terms of mental development

This does seem to require that I accurately assess both my own current level of mental development and assess the current level of mental development of others as well.

I love this and totally agree. Thank you for sharing. :pray:

I am not sure if the definition that you are using here as spiritual friends (I agree with what you mean to say in terms of MN8) agrees with the way the Buddha used the term spiritual friends (such as in AN3.26) - the latter seems to encourage a significant degree of discernment in terms of choosing who to associate with.

I completely agree with developing metta and the rest of the brahmaviharas. :pray:

Another relevant thread:

1 Like

I haven’t met everyone. And my knowledge of those I have met is incomplete. Yet somehow I’ve noticed that in all people I have met there is always an openness of heart that can be shared.

I first heard this in the Zen Sangha decades ago. I understand that the brahmaviharas, by their very infinity of scope imply this.

We probably have all felt at one time or another ostracized by this or that spiritual group. The EBT quote is:

MN1:8.2: But then they identify with gods …

I have learnt ethics, immersion, and wisdom from many people that others would avoid. It was at times perhaps not what they were trying to teach me, but I did learn. And I am quite grateful for all the lessons they taught me. Even a rock taught me how to be a better person. That rock was a spiritual friend.

3 Likes

Would “openness of heart” be the criteria to determine who is and isn’t a kalyannamitta?

Thank you letting me know.

Imply what exactly?

How do you mean? How the point about ostracism relevant to the question about whether merely looking for spiritual friends is considered being greedy for spiritual friends?

So would that imply that the Buddha was wrong to advise us not to associate with those who are inferior to us “in terms of ethics, immersion, and wisdom” or “mental development,” etc.?
Or maybe is it possible to learn from others who are “inferior to us” without say, associating with them, except out of compassion as stated in the discourse?

How?

What definition or criteria do you use to determine who is and isn’t a spiritual friend?

:pray:

1 Like

Anybody who helps me practice MN8 is a spiritual friend. For example, as a rock climber, the rock was a spiritual friend who helped me deal with restlessness:

MN8:12.23: ‘Others will be restless, but here we will not be restless.’

Being restless on a rock is deadly. If you watch Alex Honnold climb without a rope, this is clear. In this way the rock was my constant spiritual teacher for decades. The rock taught me how to move with my breath and be mindful and attentive. And that is why I bow to the rock every time I climb.

Spiritual friends are those that help us progress on the Noble Eightfold Path. The more I look for them, the more I see and the more I learn. The deepest lesson in all of that was humility. Because whenever I tried to avoid someone as being unworthy of spiritual friendship, I was proven wrong and eventually learned much from them.

MN8:12.28: ‘Others will be contemptuous, but here we will be without contempt.’

4 Likes

I also think that the focus on finding the “perfect kalyanamitta” runs the risk of being a bad friend even as defined by the Buddha:

SuttaCentral DN 31
You can recognize a fake friend who’s all take on four grounds.

Your possessions end up theirs.
Giving little, they expect a lot.
They do their duty out of fear.
They associate for their own advantage.

If you believe someone is more attained than you and associate with them for your advantage, to progress along the path, rather than just to enjoy their company then your intention may be off. You may want them to save you rather be an example and support your practice (you also support theirs the best you can). I don’t remember the sutta saying that nobody can enlighten another person because it takes personal effort. For this reason I’m extremely wary of a narrow definition of kalyanmitta and a narrow definition of who qualifies, because it can get very exclusive very quickly and that doesn’t seem effective for progress as intended.

3 Likes

These two seem in accordance with the Dhamma-Vinaya.

Thank you for taking the time to explain your perspective.

How do you reconcile what you said about “deeming someone unworthy of spiritual friendship”/“contempt” with what the Buddha seems to say to explicitly discourage associating with those who are inferior to oneself “in terms of ethics, immersion, and wisdom”?
These two seem contradictory.

How do you reconcile what you said about “if you believe someone is more attained than you and associate with them for your advantage, to progress along the path,” with what the Buddha seems to say to explicitly encourage associating with those who are superior to oneself “in terms of ethics, immersion, and wisdom”?
These two seem contradictory.

I am neither interested in a narrow, exclusive criterion nor a wide, inclusive criterion.
I am interested in figuring out what criterion the Buddha himself provided in the Dhamma-Vinaya and how one can actually use that criterion to find actual kalyanamittas in real life.
Without a proper, accurate, and clear understanding of what a kalyanamittas even is or who it is suitable for one to associate with, how can one set out to consciously, intentionally, and proactively search for suitable beings in accordance with the instructions provided by the Buddha in the Dhamma-Vinaya?

1 Like

That is going to be a bit of a shock for the entire monastic system :wink:

But to be a little more serious…This seems contrary to the way the path works to me. Any progress you make along the path benefits all sentient beings in your sphere of influence. There can be nothing selfish about progressing on the path. There is never an individual advantage at the expense of someone else when progressing on the path. From the first precept all the way to Awakening, there is a benefit for all in taking up and progressing the path. And if your kalyanamitta is realised, they will let you tag along out of compassion and kindness.

1 Like

This is along the lines of how I see it too.

Maybe the root of the misunderstanding might be:

maybe a distinction can be drawn between “material advantage” and “mental advantage” (also called “spiritual advantage”).

There is one discourse, I think in MN, where the Buddha criticizes those who desire even the slightest material advantage from the Buddha, saying he respects one who refuses to accept even leftover food in the Buddha’s bowl that he offered to them in order to strive on hungry.

The discourse I re-shared in the previous message explicitly stated that one should in fact associate with another who is superior to one precisely for the sake of “progress along the path” - and not the perhaps contemporary, modern, or Greek notion of friendship as being merely for the purpose of “enjoying each others company.”

In fact, I think there was a discourse where the Buddha criticized a monk for simply following him around and in a sense “enjoying his company” rather than any sort of attempt to advance himself mentally. The Buddha often criticizes socializing and praises solitude, which seems to lend further support to the possibility that the Buddha might even reject the goal of friendship as being “enjoying each others company.”

Maybe the distinction between material advantage and mental advantage may help clarify this confusion.

1 Like

This is precisely what I felt like could be a problem when searching for a “perfect kalyanamitta”. Thank you!

1 Like

That is because there are two considerations:

MN8:16.1: Truly, Cunda, if you’re sinking down in the mud you can’t pull out someone else who is also sinking down in the mud.
MN8:16.2: But if you’re not sinking down in the mud you can pull out someone else who is sinking down in the mud.

1 Like

:dharmawheel:

Wisdom descends to the humble as waters flow down from the hills into the valleys.

1 Like

Could this be because your assessment regarding them was inaccurate? I.e. you assessed them to be, say unworthy of spiritual friendship or inferior to yourself when in fact your assessment was inaccurate?
As opposed to say, there are no beings in the world who are inferior to you and thus not suitable for you to associate with, except out of compassion for them?

Perhaps is it possible to learn from those beings who are inferior to one without associating with them except out of compassion for them?

One thing I think has been overlooked is the reason for why the Buddha provided such guidance.
While “equality” and "love everyone " and “associate with everyone” and other such optimistic notions seem good and loving, I think there is a very real danger that the Buddha is warning against which is not being explicitly mentioned here.

Associating with beings who are very much interested in acting contrary to the Dhamma-Vinaya could lead to one’s own harm by being influenced to act contrary to the Dhamma-Vinaya.

I think it is seeing a very real danger in this, it is out of fear and concern for my own welfare that I try to disassociate from those who are unsuitable and associate with those who are suitable for me to associate with.
I am not interested in attempting to be a martyred savior who puts himself into harms way in a misguided attempt to “save” and help those who are unreceptive and unwilling to act in accordance with the Dhamma-Vinaya - I am pretty sure the Buddha did not do this either.
Perhaps this is a lesson that beings must learn the hard way if they wish to disregard the Buddha’s advice in this respect.

I am also not interested in imposing the Dhamma-Vinaya or Buddhism on any other being, so I find it more suitable to look for those who are already interested in studying and practicing the Dhamma-Vinaya independent of me. By surrounding myself with those who share my interest in studying and practicing the Dhamma-Vinaya, the hope is to create a harmonious, conducive social environment for myself where such study and practice is the norm, not an abnormality.

I think there is a discourse that mentions that one should learn from the failures and successes of both themselves and others, but I don’t think that this entails having to associate with those who are inferior to oneself or unsuitable to associate with (except out of compassion) as advised in the Dhamma-Vinaya.

1 Like

Is it suitable for laypeople to become kalyanamittas with monastics? Or is it unsuitable for monastics to associate with laypeople as kalyanamittas?

Below is my birthday-based description. Though I reject the view of fatalism/determinism, it seems to resonate with me as being accurate to a significant degree.

I just recently realized that the description might help others gauge whether an association with me seems suitable for them and perhaps even help explain my motivation for forming such a close circle of kalyanamittas in the first place (especially the bolded parts):

The Day of Sensual Charisma

MAGNETIC
SEDUCTIVE
ATTRACTIVE

HEAVY
ADDICTIVE
TROUBLED

Meditation…
The thirst for knowledge, like that for water, must be slaked

Advice…
Concentrate on strengthening your personal morality.
Cultivate the simple values of kindness and consideration toward others.
Resolve your inner struggles.
Use self-knowledge to buttress your will.

Personality of this day…
Sensuality and magnetic attraction are central themes in the lives of November 12 people: sensuality expressed in their own physical makeup or the works they are involved in producing; magnetism demonstrated in family life, secret love relationships, or in their career or social circle.

Exceptional or highly talented November 12 people must be extremely careful about misusing ego drives. Their capacity to work “miracles” in everyday situations wins them adulation, and in some cases, places them in a godlike position in their admirers’ eyes. Such worship can foster sociopathic tendencies in those born on this day. On the other hand, morally evolved November 12 people of all abilities can use their powers in the service of bringing beauty and enlightenment to those around them. Most November 12 people have an integrity and devotion to their work that imbues their persona with a singular grace. Those November 12 people with public careers may become a highly positive political force.

The conflict between golden qualities, on the one hand, and dark characteristics, on the other, is often at work in November 12 people, and both sides may in fact be entwined through their lives. However, it is also possible that a November 12 person will show a marked decay from a promising golden youth to a dark adulthood. Those born on this day face a great personal challenge in getting a handle on their wilder energies, which involves knowing themselves better and perhaps dedicating themselves to a worthwhile cause of some kind.

The creation or appreciation of beauty in all its forms is the overriding interest of November 12 people, whether it be found in beautiful children, art, home environment, bodily form or just an outright sensuality. However, behind this impulse toward the beautiful is something even more basic, and that is the force of magnetic attraction itself which so irresistibly propels a November 12 person along. It is in the red-hot crucible of their soul that impersonal dark forces rework and mold sensuous images which get projected out on the world and become at once their heaven and their hell.

Life, therefore, is not always easy for November 12 people. Tragedy and misfortune can unaccountably plague them between days, weeks or even years of ecstatic happiness and thrilling experiences. Again, the key to their balancing their lives and getting a grip on their powers is self-knowledge. If they can only appreciate how fully what materializes around them is a product of their own character, own up to moral responsibilities and take their lives in hand in an ethical fashion, they will be able to cope with negative energies which seem to invariably come their way. If not, they will be largely at the mercy of forces beyond their control.

Health…
November 12 people must be careful about expressing as well as attracting negative energy. The magnetic qualities of those born on this day are so strong that they can pull in all sorts of unwanted influences, thereby adversely affecting their health. Also, their psychological projections are powerful and when materialized in the world can return to haunt them. The good state of their health is directly proportional to their capacity for exercising willpower over harmful behavior and habits. All drugs, particularly those with addictive properties, should be viewed with caution. November 12 people should beware of cults, since the fervor written into their ideology is generally not a positive influence. Religion and prayer, however, may assume great importance for those born on this day and benefit their health greatly.

Numerology…
Those born on the 12th of the month are ruled by the number 3 (2+1=3), and by the expansive planet Jupiter. Those ruled by the number 3 seek to rise to the highest positions in their particular sphere. They also tend to be dictatorial, something those born on November 12 should be aware of. Those ruled by the number 3 value their independence, so some November 12 people may feel the need to abandon the security of a steady job in order to freelance or start their own business. Jupiterian influences encourage November 12 people to better themselves and their position, but the influence of Pluto (Scorpio’s ruler) may unfortunately create cravings for money, sex, and power.

Archetype…
The 12th card of the Major Arcana is The Hanged Man, who dangles by his foot in a head-down position. Though such a position seems helpless, The Hanged Man is nevertheless spiritually powerful and deeply thoughtful. The positive attributes of this card are recognizing limitations and overcoming them, as well as simply being human; negative aspects are spiritual myopia and restrictedness.

The Week of Charm

TOGETHER
CHARMING
RESOURCEFUL

DEFENSIVE
COMPLACENT
CONTROLLING

Advice…
Keep a critical eye on yourself.
Respond to the highest challenges and occasionally take meaningful risks.
Be mindful of what is important in life, of what endures and holds lasting value.
Always aim high and don’t be afraid of failure.

Personality of this week…
Realists first and foremost, those born during the Week of Charm rarely overreach themselves. Because they have a realistic view not only of their own capabilities but of others’ as well, their judgment is generally trustworthy and their assessments keen. They do well in administrative positions or as leaders of a social group or working team, roles in which their evaluative, organizational and practical abilities can come to the fore.

Because they have a great deal together internally, many of them risk becoming complacent, or perhaps self-satisfied. This may be particularly clear in their careers, where they may reach an attainable point, then make no effort to rise higher. Unless those near and dear to these individuals encourage them to take chances from time to time, they may stagnate and, eventually, come to regret lost opportunities. Those who prove the most successful in life, whether in their careers or in their personal and spiritual endeavors, are often those who have dared to strive toward realizing their most impossible dreams.

Their passions are as strong as their control. Thus they may be subject to raging internal wars, which can even threaten to destroy them. The charming or inscrutable facade that they present to the world often hides tremendous inner conflicts. Those who are the objects of such passions, and the causes of such conflicts, may never realize how much emotion they are arousing, and therefore can hardly be expected to assume responsibility for it. Those who are able to show or at least discuss a small part of their feeling for another person will be closer to realizing success in their personal relationships.

These people are not accustomed to putting themselves in a disadvantageous position, no matter how much they desire a job or person. Their dignity is important to them, and they will rarely compromise it. Should they reach one of those points in life where an attraction is so overwhelming that it does obstruct their good sense, they will only succumb after a tremendous inner struggle. Addictions of all sorts, whether to drugs, medicines, people or behavior patterns, they only break with difficulty, but such compulsions, once mastered, are rarely readopted.

They must be careful lest they dominate others through overprotective or controlling attitudes. Such influences may be quite subtle, since they rarely seem smothering or dictatorial on the surface: fair and understanding, they arouse loyalty not only at home but at work. People tend to follow their bidding willingly, since they would never ask anyone to do something they wouldn’t do themselves. Yet they often throw up an unapproachable or forbidding exterior. Those who relate best to them are usually not put off by such a stance, or just don’t see it at all. These are the ones who can penetrate their defenses and win their hearts.

Those who want to make friends with them must keep in mind their aversion to anyone looking for a free ride. They are often attracted to self-sufficient individuals with something unusual to offer. On the other hand, the more seductive of them are sometimes quite vulnerable to the seductive skills of others. In particular, those who choose to follow a more questionable or unscrupulous path are in danger of getting conned by those with superior powers of deception.

Striving to remain open, even vulnerable, is the best hope for them if they are to avoid loneliness, particularly as they grow older. In seeming to have so much together, they often fail to arouse sympathy in others, yet their deeper needs are as great as anyone else’s. The ability to admit to their weaknesses and faults, and the courage to own up to their failures or to grieve openly over their losses, will be important for them in forming deep and lasting love relationships. A life partner may only materialize for these capable individuals once they have truly begun to master—and ultimately, perhaps, to relinquish—their own controlling attitudes.

These people rarely kid themselves about their romantic lives. No matter how much in love they seem to be, they are rarely found hanging on to relationships that have proved unproductive or detrimental; usually resourceful, self-possessed individuals, they know that there are always more fish in the sea. Yet they are faithful and sincere, and will give a relationship its best chance—but not more. Their sexual partners and mates learn soon enough not to take their attentions for granted, and to heed all warning signs—or find that what has been freely given can also be withheld, or withdrawn entirely.

Close friendships are important to those born during the Week of Charm who have chosen to live alone, or who lack the support of a family group. They can build a complete world around good friends, who, at certain points, may take the place of siblings, parents, children, mates or lovers for them. They often spend time with people who are very different from themselves, making for friendships in which each member supplies what the other lacks. By forging a circle of friends, they may succeed in making up for all, or almost all, of their deficiencies.


If you are still interested, even after all of this, in carefully considering and discussing the possibility of becoming kalyanamittas, regardless of background external factors (sex, race, age, disability, color, creed, national origin, religion, etc., or any other background factors), please feel free to pm/private message me!