Kamma and its learning environment

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Hi all a question I have has to do with Kamma.

This is more of an observation I guess than a question, but it seems to me that the fundamental set up of Kamma is a bit unjust.

In the field of judgment and decision making there’s a concept known as kind and wicked learning environments. With kind environments providing immediate clear feedback based on a stable rules based process which allows for someone to learn fast. Alternatively a wicked learning environment has delayed feedback and noisy signal quality that creates a much slower learning environment. To me it seems as if Kamma, due to memory loss at the end of one life going into a new life at, is a wicked learning environment.

The way someone learns not to touch a hot stove is by immediate feedback. If certain results of a lifetime aren’t seen until another lifetime the ability to learn from that experience is drastically diminished. If someone born in a hell realm or difficult life circumstances had the ability to directly recall a previous lifetimes actions that lead to this then they would have a much stronger chance of immediately correcting their actions. However, as it stands that’s not the case.

I know Buddhism often sets aside the unknowables but doesn’t this seem fundamentally unfair.

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Hi @nebularising!

Interesting question. It inspired me to reflect on death. Perhaps it even helps us on our spiritual path that death is the way it is. Perhaps we would be even more deluded (or more trapped) if we did not have sufficient spiritual development to deal with the memories of previous lives. When we die, we have to let go of quite a lot. Perhaps death is more like a great teacher.

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Thanks for post this discussion on kamma. I think that once a person understands what the suttas reveal about what kamma is, what the Buddha discovered about rebirth and how kamma works will not only clear up questions about kamma but will help one to see the Noble Eightfold Path much more cohesively.

This is a complex question to answer in a post! In a very brief synopsis, here’s how I understand it to work. I’m open to correction!

First, a little backstory to know what’s happening in the mind.

Consciousness is one of the 5 Aggregates of grasping. Consciousness is impermanent: a constantly changing process, an ever changing flux of states of consciousness. SN 22.95

Ajahn Brahm has said that if we want to know what consciousness is, we need to know what it does. Ven. Sujato has defined consciousness as "the faculty of knowing, stimulated by the 6 senses.”

In MN 43 we learn that an unwise person feels and cognizes/knows, but doesn’t understand the Four Noble Truths of suffering, thus makes bad choices. They are fooled by the magic trick that internalizes and believes that consciousness is a self/soul/permanent entity when it is actually impermanent, a constantly changing stream of consciousness.

A wise person understands the Four Noble Truths of suffering. With wisdom, the mind understands what it cognizes/knows and cognizes/knows what it understands.

The mind inclines towards what it thinks about frequently and its underlying tendencies. SN 12.40

Through AN 10.104 we understand that an unwise person thinks frequently about sense pleasures, anger, cruelty etc., and willfully acts with bad deeds. Consciousness with those underlying tendencies is established as a field where the seeds of bad intentional deeds are planted and moistened by craving. When that person dies, the field does not die, but rather, the stream of consciousness with its field of kamma and its craving is planted like a seed into the next life, continuing on. Rebirth.

The memory that is lost upon death is the identification with the previous life. In rebirth, the seeds of intentional action of the stream of consciousness (kamma) continues growing and operating in a new life and the vipaka (ripening of that kamma) of previous deeds continues on.

It wasn’t until the Buddha had purified his mind spotlessly was he able to discern rebirth directly. That’s why it so important and rewarding to follow the Dhamma, develop wisdom, understand the Four Noble Truths, remove the impurities of the mind, and make good kamma.

There is no storehouse of kamma and there is no entity or force of the universe enforcing vipaka. A person is the heir to their deeds and it’s up to them to purify the mind and think and act with Right Action.

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Interesting ideas.
I think it’s both kinds of learning environments.

We can take MN61 as an immediate way of reflecting on our ethical choices and also see this outline in MN60. If we keep inclining our minds to doing harmful and greedy things then we are going to be watching our backs in this life. We can delude ourselves otherwise but that, in itself is a lot of effort.

I am also reminded of King Yama in AN3.36 saying ‘didn’t you see?’. We have the opportunity to see in this human life, at least. It is just that delusion is an active force which we employ to avoid seeing the consequences of our actions.

In the end our ethical choices lead us to be born in a place which reflects our accumulated values.

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Thabks Adutiya for your thoughtful response. This part here though is the crucial part I’m flagging. It would seem to me that any Kamma that takes more than one life to manifest would lose its teaching ability as memories of previous misconduct would be lost. Additionally, if say someone is born in a pretty tough environment where there’s all sorts of crime, violence, poverty, or even war / atrocities there may be a higher likelihood that that person will have more ethical misconduct and without the ability to recognise that one’s current position in life is due to something that occurred several life times ago then it would be tough to learn from that.

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Agreed, and I’m fortunate to have found the Dhamma which has expounded on this. My only comment which I guess is just a fact of life is that kamma that takes several life times to manifest wouldn’t be teachable Kamma as you wouldn’t have access to the previous ethical misconduct that led to it.

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it might feel that way but kamma is one factor among many conditions and not the only factor.

Also in the suttas, the cosmos is not framed as a moral judge but as causal. Unfairness presumes a distributor of outcomes. Dependent origination presents lawful conditionality without a dispenser. So suffering is not a verdict; it’s a conditioned process to be understood and ended, by each one by himself.

yea but path relies on present-moment investigation of craving, aversion, and delusion. I don’t think insight requires memory of each and everything from past lessons, but it requires clear seeing of processes from present moment. so although because of not being able to remember past, the ability to learn from experience is drastically diminished, it is i feel even more of a reason to work even more urgently, giving the insight into the ‘anicca’ and ‘dukkha’ nature of this world.

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This isn’t the only way to learn though. For example, our parents or guardians may tell us—“Don’t touch that stove, it’s hot and will burn you”. We have that ability to learn from others. Still, many of us will still end up touching that hot stove and get immediate feedback. Many us will do that more than once. :wink:

That certainly sounds correct to me. Some deeds bear their fruit immediately, some bear their fruit at a later point in this life, and some that bear their fruit at some point in future lives. We can’t be expected to remember all the deeds we do and watch the (sometimes very long) chain of events and outcomes of those deeds.

Luckily (or due to good kamma from past lives), for us right now, we have the teachings of the Buddha to guide us—just like we had our guardians telling us about hot stoves. Without these teachings we are truly stumped and just go around in circles, forgetting our way. So when Ananda suggested that “good friends, companions, and associates are half the spiritual life”, the Buddha corrected him saying, “Not so, Ānanda! Not so, Ānanda! Good friends, companions, and associates are the whole of the spiritual life”. (SN 45.2).

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I think that kamma manifesting is less a manifestation of teaching and more just the natural outcome of a person’s willful thoughts and actions. If a person inclines their mind with thoughts of desires of the senses, anger and delusion, the mind they bring into the next life will continue in a bad destination. If a person fills their mind with thoughts of kindness, compassion, non-harm and benevolence, the mind they bring into the next life will continue in a good destination. That’s why it’s so urgently important to live the Noble Eightfold Path, develop wisdom and incline one’s mind towards awakening.

That is having Right View. Knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that doing that act will bring suffering is powerful enough for you to deeply internalize the danger and drawback of ever doing it again. Every day, billions of people do actions that they know are wrong, have felt the suffering from those actions and despite the feedback, and do it anyway. That’s Wrong View. Right View is the beginning of the Noble Eightfold Path, when one finally understands the danger of a deed or taking a defiled mind into the next life so strongly that they can’t do that again. Right View also comes from knowing from personal experience of sitting in an empty hut and seeing the fruit of the Buddha’s teaching that the Dhamma changes one’s mind and one’s kamma.

As Venerable Pasanna said it’s both environments of learning: getting burned by the hot stove and training one’s mind.

If someone in prison directly recalled actions that lead to this then would they would have a much stronger chance of immediately correcting their actions? Yes. And how many do?

I’m not sure what you mean by unknowables.

Succinct, eloquent and right.

We are having this discussion right now, so we are very fortunate indeed!

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