thanks so much for sharing your experiences! Actually, again I am trying very similar things! I got a fair share of my inspiration from reading in Bhikkhu Anaalayo’s “Perspectives on Satipatthaana”. There are many good quotes, similies and explanations based on the Early Buddhist Texts, but then again trying to work out the details of the practice and cultivate it is not so easy. So, some advice from the Bhantes would be very welcome.
I also experiment with ‘asubha practice’ to counter sensual desire. I had some problems meditating after forcing me through long periods of sitting on a retreat. Obviously, I had developed ill-will towards the meditation. Unfortunately, that ill-will got quite strong and remained after the retreat. Then I changed my formal practice to only do mettaa meditation (which helped a lot to overcome the ill-will). However, then my sensual desire seemed to get much stronger. Or maybe I just became more aware of it. Anyways, I would see for example details of some womans hair like a snapshot of an image taken of some female deva’s hair in heaven. (pretty much how you describe it) …and I was a bit upset about that…
So now I always try to stay with some part of the attention rooted in the body. This already takes care of some of the desire to go out there and experience it all. If sensual desire is nevertheless on the rise, then I focus on my skeleton, or on my intestines, or the contents of my intestines, or any other of the ‘anatomical parts’. Or I imagine how my ‘body decays’, or I imagine my body on the cellular level. Or I imagine to see the skeletons of the other people. Or I try to analyze that I am just looking at head hair, body hair, teeth, nails or skin. (…basically I am just experimenting still…)
In any case, like you I also find, that the asubha practice works in that sensual desire is reduced for the time my attention moves away from the aspect of beauty to those other aspects. Also, I usuallay focus on my skeleton when I do the mettaa practice, so I am not repelled by the image of a skeleton (it often has a nice glow), but I also have no unwholesome sensual desire invested in it.
It feels a bit awkward that I cannot interact with the same kindness with all beings at the moment, because sometimes, I am too busy dealing with arising unwholesome mind states (*). Sometimes I feel like I am being a bit unfriendly if I do this practice, because usually I enjoy interacting kindly and joyfully with others, for example exchanging a kind smile (if the opportunity arises naturally). So its a bit stupid, but I guess, this just shows how much I stand at the beginning of the path and how much I still have to learn… and I agree that this “reprogramming of the natural urges”, as you put it, does seem to take its time. Then again, without trying to find a way it would never change.
My sincere thanks again for this discussion and with much mettaa,
Robert
ADDED 2015-03-23: (reformulated some sentences in this post to better reflect my position)
Actually, as I am going throug this post, it appears to me that my interaction with others is always conditioned. So sometimes purity of the heart arises and the interaction is purer and sometimes any defilement (not just sensual desire) may arise depending on the conditions and then the interaction is less pure. In any case my initial ‘sadness’ about not always beeing able to interact with all beings in a totally pure way at all times is foolish. This is just the way interactions will be as long as the mind has not been purified.
so far that was not the case. I think, for me with that particular set of defilements, it is important to balance the practice of the four Brahmavihaaras and the asubha practice. I would skip the asubha practice, if I knew a better way to deal with some of the unskillfull responses of my mind. Anyways, the practice is also in the Buddha’s repertoire (according to the EBT), so there very likely is a healthy way to cultivate it.
So far the practice works in that it is actually quite nice to have some part of my attention rooted in the body (I use a region in the lower abdomen which I know as Dan Tian from some Qi Gong practice I have done in the past). Also, as I said, I try to do the practice in a way that I am not going over board in the direction of ill-will and hatred. In one Sutta the Buddha compares analyzing the anatomical parts of the body with investigating a bag full of grains or beans that has openings on both ends. Grains or beans are usually neither particularly attractive nor repulsive. Hence, the Buddha obviously envisaged an equanimous approach.
Also, thanks to the mettaa practice I can give attention of a higher quality to more people, than I was able to do before. I guess over time the combination of both practices will help me to have a more healthy and balanced interaction with all people. (I can hopefully tell you in a few years… )
Thank you for this wonderful discussion and sharing of experiences. Similarly, I have gone through some of the experiences above. From my experience, when I wasn’t mindful, restraining can lead to suppressing. It’s the the negativity (fault-finding) that leads to ill effects. I noticed that when I told myself “I shouldn’t be feeling or thinking this way” it actually fed it more (anger eating demon simile) making it stronger and stronger. But when I told myself it is okay, this is natural of having the senses and having a body (with it’s hormones, etc.), and then remind myself that I have the option to not pursue the feelings, then it subsides. I also tell myself not to feel guilty about feeling such things. No one is at fault.
Tools that can be used for sensual lust or fantasies:
-ensure you are well rested and healthy (tiredness results in low mindfulness/awareness)
-complications of a relationship and the eventual conflict as a result
-old age, sickness, death (do you really want to add more problems to already what you have?)
-compassion (towards yourself and the other person, 'cos both of you are going through the same thing)
-that sensual lust is an addiction one should be weaned from
-remind yourself that you are practicing to be an ariya
-love for the dhamma and where it could lead you
I think it is probably better to say that every intention comes with a motivation, and you cannot have an intention unless it is motivated by something. You could say that your intention is “coloured” by your motivation, and the sort of kamma you are making will depend on that colour. In other words, intention and motivation are just different aspects of a single state of mind. In fact when Buddhists use the expression intention they tend to mean just this: intention together with the motivation that colours it.
I think you are onto something very important here. In my reading of the suttas sense restraint is more about wisdom than will power. Will power, as you suggest, can only be maintained for so long, and it is a bit painful at the same time. Wisdom is seeing things clearly and as such the mind just turns away by itself, and very little will power is required. Please have a look at MN19. It seems to me that this sutta is saying precisely that wisdom is the way to overcome the defilements. AN2:11-13 too are interesting in this regard.
Yes, every time I’ve tried cutting out all (or really most) sense pleasures at once, I’ve become very irritable and I’ve given it up in a matter of weeks. It is just because of those experiences, I decided to take the approch described above in my two last posts - dont tackle the unwholesome kamma head on, but work on it’s causes.
It’s getting harder and harder to have greedy thoughts about material stuff, when I feel it has less and less value. It’s getting harder and harder to have angry thoughts towards other people and myself when I know more and more that it doesn’t solve anything and only feeds the process. Not that sure about delusion, but I guess that really is the part I’m working on…
I’ve also seen from personal experience that the earlier I catch my unwholesome mental proliferation, the easier it is to move the train of thought in a wholesome direction. There’s less and less need to supress anything and things mostly just fall away after I acknowledge their presence (I know you, Mara! ).
for me it is also important that sense restraint, seclusion, and renunciation are not about having no joy at all. I enjoy the good spiritual joy and feelings of mettaa meditation and of kind acts. I also happily allow my mind some not so harmful foolishness like watching a movie, enjoying nice food with friends and the like. I am also in a romantic relationship with my wife. I am a layman and these things are normal for a layman’s life. The Buddha knew and acknowledged that.
I only try to reduce the grossly unwholsome desires for now - try to purify the mind step by step within the boundaries of what I can happily let go of for the time being. As you say, Raivo, do not try to force yourself to give up all [unwholesome] sense pleasure at once. I tried the brute force approach in meditation and it did not work at all for me. Just as Ajhan Brahm says: “Be your own best friend.”
Dear all,
Thank you for this wonderful discussion. Some times doubt arise in my spiritual practice and it nice to hear other people experience with restrain. Cultivating wisdom in the mind which has many defilements is not an easy job. But as far as I understand in Buddhas words wisdom will come from practicing letting go of unwholesome states . Do I understand this right?
With metta, Alona
Yes, the way I understand the Dhamma, the really profound insights into the nature of life should come pretty much by themselves when we have let go of the five hindrances and see things clearly.
But in the beginning stages, wisdom is also knowing what the unwholesome (unskillful, harmful, not useful) and wholesome states are, why they are unwholesome and wholesome, why and how they enter and stay in our minds, and how to let them go or develop them.
Usually hearing a teacher describe all this is just hearing words that don’t really mean that much to us. We can nod and think we understand, but later on, after experiencing something personally, we can discover that we really had no idea what they were talking about.
It really is very hard at first but I can honestly say that it gets easier and the rewards more than make up for any suffering born from stupidity along the way.
I think this is a very keen observation of yours and it entails a point I stepped over in my previous post. Your way of putting this reflects wisely the conditioned nature of sensual desire. Sensual desire is arising due to conditions and triggers. Your sentence reminds me of the way this is formulated in the Suttas. A passage from Samyukta-Aagama 1260, translated by Ven. Anaalayo in his book “Perspectives of Sattipathaana” reads:
“On seeing women/men, he/she arouses improper attention and, grasping the sign of their physical form, lustful sensual desires appear in his/her mind.”
Ven. Anaalayo quotes SN 20.10 (The Cat) as a parallel version in the Paali-Nikaayas. Another passage is taken from Samyukta-Aagama 312, translated by Ven. Anaalayo in the book:
“If on having seen a form with the eye,
Right mindfulness has been lost,
Then, in relation to the form that has been seen, The sign will be grasped with thoughts of craving,
For one who grasps the sign with craving and delight,
The mind will constantly be bound by attachment.”
He quotes SN 35.95 as a parallel version. Somehow this formulation of grasping the sign of the physical form resonates very much with how I perceive the process unfolding in my mind. To me it seems as if my mind is picking out one detail of a shape or of proportions or so and zooms in on that and then gets attached to it. (I just quoted these passages, because I thought you or others might like them too.)
Also regarding wise attention (yoniso manasikaara), which we also addressed here - for example in relation to Alona’s question on how wisdom can arise in the mind. I very much like Ven. Anaalyo EBT study on this topic in his book “From Grasping to Emptiness”, p. 69 ff. - in my view the gist of his findings actually resemble very closely to what you wrote as a reply to Alona.
Anaalayo very clearly describes that the Early Buddhist Teachings (EBT) very much emphazise wise attention (yoniso manasikaara) for the progress on the path in the text.
With much mettaa,
Robert
2015-03-25 Corrected some confusing mistakes:
In the last paragraph I had written “wise intention”, but meant “wise attention”. Also, the paragraph did not reflect the fact, that the explanations given/positions taken in the book by Ven. Anaalayo are based on the Early Buddhist Teachings. There were also a number of typos in my post… Sorry, I was quite a bit pressed for time when I wrote this post.
… I just wanted to add that I picked up the idea of “imagining” ones own skeleton during mettaa meditation from recordings of a 9 day mettaa retreat taught by Bhante Sujato in 2012. (Unfortunately, I do not know where these specific recordings would be available online. I checked and there are mettaa retreat recordings available for downlowd from Santi Forest Monastery from 2007: http://santifm.org/santi/downloads/
I would assume these instructions are similar, but I did not check myself. I also attended two weekends on mettaa meditation with Bhante Sujato myself. With this I just want to say - just as a general disclaimer - that the best way to learn the practice is obviously if you attend a full retreat first and then use the recordings to brush up your memory. Unfortunately, due to my job, I could not attend an extended retreat yet, but just the two weekends already helped my a lot to get started with the practice…)
Also, one good example, where I could get a taste of how ‘contemplation of the body’ could be practiced, was from the half hour meditation prior to a recent Dhamma talk by Bhante Sujato with the title “Contemplation of Death”. The meditation was cut out of the video on the Dhammaloka Youtube channel, but it is still available in the ‘original’ Livestream recording. (If the link does not work, use the slider under main screen and look for “Dhamma Talk 20-02-2015” - the meditation starts at around 6:00 minutes).
Thank you @brahmali and they are very useful answers!
(3) If you act it out it is much worse, but fantasising is also best avoided. How do you feel if you fantasise about killing someone? If you notice that you feel less positive or bright than normal, you know the kamma is not good. One of the essential things on the Buddhist path is to gradually change the way we think. But again, please don’t set the bar too high, or you will just get very frustrated and perhaps even give up.
, Lust,friends, is slightly blameworthy but slow to fade away; hatred is very blameworthy but quick to fade away; delusion is very blameworthy and slow to fade away. "
I think in your answer you referred to fantasising about killing but is it the same with greed? I mean outside samadhi we have no choice but to have some greed.Is there any distinction between blamewothy or unblameworthy greed?
What does gradualness mean in Buddhism ?
I would highly recommend both of them to everybody - very easy to read, based on the suttas and make the meanings of different pali terms a lot clearer in many ways.
One of the ten courses of unwholesome action (see MN41) is covetousness, and this is defined as longing for the possessions of others. This is obviously a strong form of greed, and it is this that is considered unwholesome mental action (bad mental kamma) as far as greed is concerned.
It depends on what your level of ambition is. If you want to practice the path fully, including deep samādhi, then any sort of greed (sensual desire) is going to be a problem and as such it is blameworthy. But from the perspective of getting a better rebirth the lesser forms of greed will not be much of a hindrance as long as the rest of your life is well lived. Please also remember the idea of kamma not being just good or bad (wholesome or unwholesome), but different shades of grey.
In practical terms the trick is to deal with the strongest defilements first of all, especially the anger. As you gradually eliminate the coarser defilements you can start to focus on the middling defilements. As you eliminate those, you turn to the refined defilements. In this way the path is gradual, that is, a gradual purification. This gradualness is well described in AN3:100.
Such an important note, many thanks dear Ajahn and to all members for holding this healthy discussion. It has helped me in clearing many doubts and simplified the Kamma & rebirth teachings which before seemed complicated to go through, cheers to the community
in the above post (which I am replying to), I had specified the Central European Times (CET) for the livestream sessions in terms of the timezone in Germany including “Daylight Savings Time” (DST), because I had written that post in winter. Tomorrow, 29.03.2015 in Germany and most countries in Europe, the clock will be set back 1 hour to “normal time”. As far as I could find out from the internet, Western Australia does not use DST, which means that all sessions start one hour LATER in terms of European time:
Hence, tomorrows course schedule in Europe is:
06:30 - 08:00 and 10:30 - 12:30 - Central European Time (summer time)
With much mettā,
Robert
CHANGED 29.03.2015: Since the effect of changing from DST to normal time is usually that everything is one hour earlier, I did the calculation the wrong way. Actually, in this exceptional situation we can sleep one hour longer. Because the course is at 9:30 DST and stays there. Now in ‘normal time’ or ‘summer time’ what was 9:30 before with DST is now 10:30 in ‘summer time’…
My sincere apologies, if I stole your sleep and ruined your Sunday!!! Well, the intention was pure. Unfortunately, there was a fatal lack of wisdom…
For my defense I can only say that I had typed in the starting time into a time zone converter in the internet, which gave me the 4:30 and thus helped to get me onto the wrong track…
I got a fair share of my inspiration from reading in Bhikkhu Anaalayo’s “Perspectives on Satipatthaana”. There are many good quotes, similies and explanations based on the Early Buddhist Texts, but then again trying to work out the details of the practice and cultivate it is not so easy. So, some advice from the Bhantes would be very welcome.
).
Well, the intention was pure. Unfortunately, there was a fatal lack of wisdom…