KN Snp 4.7 more proof that V&V in first jhāna is thinking and pondering

Discussion
1

The two words to pay attention to are

  1. sankappa (resolve or thinking), and
  2. jhāyati (verb for “doing jhāna”).

Both Ven.'s translate “doing jhāna” here as “brooding”. But the point here is the nature of first jhana’s V&V (vitakka & vicara) is ordinary type of thinking. If the thinking is about a wholesome topic, like 4bv (brahmavihara) or wholesome Dhamma teaching, then it’s first jhana provided you can simultaneously maintain passadhi-sambojjhanga (pacification of body and mind, to the point piti-sukha manifests).

Here in KN Snp 4.7, it’s a wrong first jhāna based on 5 hindrances, specifically lustful resolves/thinking.
See these passsages for more info on wrong jhāna:

MN 36 austerity of holding the breath “jhāna”
wrong jhāna, paj-jhāyanti nij-jhāyanti avaj-jhāyanti
    AN 6.46 dhamma teachers disparaging meditation experts
    AN 11.9 simile of horse who only thinks about eating
    MN 108 praisworthy jhāna and un-worthy
    MN 50 insult monk’s jhāna by comparing to animals hunting
    KN Snp 5.0 vatthu-gāthā (prologue-verses)

KN Snp 4.7 tissa-metteyya (To Tissa-metteyya)
(excerpt, from Thanissaro trans.)

♦ 823.
♦ “yaso kitti ca yā pubbe,
 His earlier honor & dignity:
hāyate vāpi tassa sā.
 lost.
♦ etampi disvā sikkhetha,
 Seeing this,
methunaṃ vippahātave.
 he should train himself
to abandon sexual intercourse.
♦ 824.
♦ “ saṅkappehi pareto so,
 Overcome by resolves,
kapaṇo viya jhāyati.
 he broods
♦ sutvā paresaṃ nigghosaṃ,
 like a miserable wretch.
maṅku hoti tathāvidho.
 Hearing the scorn of others,
he’s chagrined.

Here’s Bodhi’s translation of the same passage, with NIddesa cmy.

(b. bodhi trans.)
817. “Whatever fame and acclaim he previously enjoyed,
these fall away from him.
Having seen this, one should train
to abandon sexual intercourse. (4)

  1. “Oppressed by his thoughts,
    he broods like a poor wretch.
    Having heard the reprimand of others,
    one such as this is humiliated. (5)

(Niddesa cmy on that verse, B.Bodhi KN Snp trans.)
818. For one who does not abandon sexual intercourse, [537] oppressed by his thoughts . . . is humiliated. The reprimand of others: words of blame from his preceptor and others. Humiliated: discomfited.
Nidd I 109–10. Oppressed by his thoughts, he broods like a poor wretch: Troubled, oppressed, weighed down, pursued, and closed in by sensual thought, malevolent thought, aggressive thought, and thought of views, like a poor wretch, like a dullard, like a stupid person he meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates. Just as an owl on a branch waiting for a mouse meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates, or just as a jackal on a riverbank waiting for fish meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates, or just as a cat waiting for a mouse by an alley or drain or rubbish bin meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates, or just as a donkey unladen, standing by a door-post or a dust-bin or a drain, meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates (see MN I 334,18–34), so the one who leaves the homeless life meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates like a poor wretch, like a dullard, like a stupid person — troubled, oppressed, weighed down, pursued, and closed in by sensual thought, malevolent thought, aggressive thought, and thought of views.

NIddesa seems to take a point of view it’s an unpleasant wrong jhana experience, but it can be very pleasurable.

Somebody who is jhāna capable can easily do evil/wrong jhāna by taking an unwholesome object, such as eating delicious food, sexual fantasy, tantric sex with wrong piti-sukha lasting hours, etc.

conclusion

The point is people need to wake up to the reality that Jhāna doesn't just mean 4 jhānas, right samādhi, or right jhāna. The word jhāna or doing jhāna (jhāyati) is also used to describe ineffective or wrong jhānas, such as the Buddha holding his breath for 10 minutes as an austerity, or a cat in samadhi hunting a mouse.

This shows for sankappa, V&V (vitakka & vicara) to remain coherent through all of these usages of “jhāna” in the suttas, it must mean “thinking and evaluation”, not “placing the mind and keeping it connected”.

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2

Thank you, Frank.
I can’t recall anyone explaining wrong Jhana with sutta support like this even though I was aware of what wrong Jhana means.

3

You may be correct but I see it differently.
It depend on Samatha or Vipassana.
In case of Vipassana your statement is correct.
In case of Samatha your statment is incorect as far as I understand it.

4

Could be elaborate on this?

5

It is worth listening to the following video.

6

And what do you mean by “ordinary type of thinking”?

7

The types of thoughts you think and ponder before you speak them out loud. As opposed to “placing the mind and keeping it connected” as B. Sujato translates V&V, which AFAIK is equivalent to VRJ (vism. redefinition of jhana) type of V&V that classifies vaci-sankhara as access concentration V&V, and jhāna V&V as “initial thought and sustained thought” (mind trying to glue itself to visual kasina or nimitta).

As SN 36.11 very clearly states:

(9 gradual nirodho/cessations)

atha kho pana, bhikkhu, mayā anu-pubba-saṅkhārānaṃ nirodho akkhāto.
 “And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications.
1. paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa vācā niruddhā hoti.
 1. When one has attained the first jhāna, speech has ceased.
2. dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa vitakka-vicārā niruddhā honti.
 2. When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thought & evaluation have ceased.
3. tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa pīti niruddhā hoti.
 3. When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has ceased.
4. catutthaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa assāsa-passāsā niruddhā honti.
 4. When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has ceased.
5. ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ samāpannassa rūpa-saññā niruddhā hoti.
 5. When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has ceased.
6. viññāṇañcāyatanaṃ samāpannassa ākāsānañcāyatanasaññā niruddhā hoti.
 6. When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space has ceased.
7. ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ samāpannassa viññāṇañcāyatanasaññā niruddhā hoti.
 7. When one has attained the dimension of nothingness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness has ceased.
8. nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ samāpannassa ākiñcaññāyatanasaññā niruddhā hoti.
 8. When one has attained the dimension of neither-perception nor non-perception, the perception of the dimension of nothingness has ceased.
9. saññā-vedayita-nirodhaṃ samāpannassa saññā ca vedanā ca niruddhā honti.
 9. When one has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, perception & feeling have ceased.

Important obvious things people have a hard time understanding, thanks to VRJ

1. vaci-sankhara are "speech fabrications", defined as vitakka and vicara. So speech drops out in first jhana, speech fabrications drop out in 2nd jhana. And this is why first jhana is not noble silence, 2nd jhana is noble silence (SN 21.1). If it were not possible to do ordinary type of thinking in first jhana, then why would the Buddha say "speech ceases" as the border condition that would exclude one from first jhana? Please people exercise logic and common sense here. Before you speak, do you "think and ponder", or do you glue your mind and keep it connected to a kasina and then fully coherent speech magically makes your vocal cords vibrate and your lips flap?
  1. look at attainment 5 carefully, the base of infinite space. rupa-sanna drops out here. That means before attainment 5, the first four jhanas, rupa-sanna is ACTIVE. One is percipient of sounds, mosquito bites, leg pain, etc. One can exercise the will to flap the lips and speak, but doing so would exit first jhana.

SN 46, the bojjhanga samyutta collection, especially SN 46.2 and 46.3 give very clear detailed explanation of how it works.

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