Lay Arahants. Why not?

This might not have any bearing for a non-Mahayana Buddhist, but the Vimalakirti Sutra is well-loved for being about a layperson who’s attained a high level of enlightenment.

It’s rather unique among the Buddhist scriptures for having this subject of a layperson’s enlightenment. Though the scripture has some legendary elements, I like to think of Vimalakirti as a historical person.

The naga princess of the Lotus Sutra is not only another example of a layperson attaining enlightenment, she’s also of an entirely different species, showing the universality of all beings’ potential for enlightenment. I don’t know if nagas exist in real life, but the message is still the same.

This tread is long and it was a while since I read the earlier discussion, however Mae Chee Kaew is widely accepted as an arahant. I also believe there are living arahant Sayalays in Myanmar (and abroad). Although these women where/are not Bhikkhuni, they live/d under supportive conditions similar to that of Bhikkhuni ordination.

I can’t believe I am posting this! I’m very pro Bhikkhūnī ordination as I’ve seen with my own eyes the disadvantages not living with vinaya has for the sayalays. Also, some believe the Mae Cher Keaw book was released as propaganda to support the argument higher ordination isn’t needed for women.

Hopefully I haven’t sidetracked the thread too much.

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In Japan, there is a well-attested tradition of lay people attaining a high level of enlightenment:

Myoko-nin in Japanese means “a marvelous fine man,” but the myoko-nin is a special type of personality who corresponds in the West to the holy fool in Russian spirituality, or to something like the Franciscan in Catholic spirituality. I will tell you some myoko-nin stories because that is the best way to indicate their character.

One day a myoko-nin was traveling and he stopped in a Buddhist temple overnight. He went up to the sanctuary where they have big cushions for the priests to sit on, and he arranged the cushions in a pile on the floor and went to sleep on them. In the morning the priest came in and saw the tramp sleeping and said, “What are you doing here desecrating the sanctuary by sleeping on the cushions and so on, right in front of the altar?” And the myoko-nin looked at him in astonishment and said, “Why, you must be a stranger here, you can’t belong to the family.”
Allan Watts: The Philosophies of Asia, Terebess Asia Online (TAO)

I think this topic has been on going through many Buddhist communities for sometime.
On my own opinion and understanding from my own insight is that, women has equal chances for cultivating on the path to arahant. Thou both men and women has different paths and different journey while towards the same destination.

my main concern is we should all take a step back to absorb whatever the buddha has taught us rather than fighting for individual’s rights. this is so much “in trend” for the last half century of this world. every group of people are fighting for their own rights. the vegetarians fighting for their own agenda, the LGBT groups, people who love dogs set up dog clubs, people who love to cook set up cooking groups, all fighting for the rights to their own “likes and survival”.

We all wish to be acceptance and wished we are all equal. We are equal, but we are not the same.

so that’s just my concern. don’t be a tool for Mara to use, to speed up the dharma ending age.

whether mae chee keow’s book is a case of propaganda or not (i actually heard of this the first time), i do not know. the question is, do you think women can be arahant (still, in this modern world?).

:hugs:

To say that marriage equality and women ordaining is the same as dog clubs or vegetarianism is ridiculous.

If we’re going to take that approach then we may as well just disband the whole sangha. The monks shouldn’t have their ‘club’ either and all hetrosexual couples should have their marriage annulled.

Full ordination for women allows them the protection and support of vinaya. The vinaya is not a ‘tool of Mara’, it is our inheritance from the Buddha.

Yes, I know women can be arahants in this age. However, there are very few of them compared to males. One of the factors for enlightenment is to hear the dhamma from a Noble one. With less opportunities for women to train fully, there are less female ariya. With less female ariya we are limiting the training for more females. Therefor we are limiting the opportunities for the dhamma to prosper.

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Yesterday I was clever, I wanted to change the world. Today I’m wise, I’m changing myself - Rumi

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The myokonin, those great Buddhist saints of Japanese history, are often unlearned, simple people. The myokonin were both men and women, and they often had a deeper understanding of truth than the priests did.

Through humbly reciting the Nembutsu, Namu-Amida-Butsu, they are made aware of their faults and imperfections, and their true Buddha-nature (the luminous mind) is allowed to shine through.

I mention these things to give historical examples of lay people who’ve attained a high level of enlightenment.

There were sramanas in other traditions as well. They had different teachings about the ‘self’. The ‘title’ is also used in Jainism - past and present. There is also an etymological connection between the religious title: Shaman and the term Shramana - this may give us a hint as to the ancient roots of Sramanism. It could have been a tradition that has its roots in the Harrapan civilisation that predates the Aryan - tribal - invasion of North India. I read a study of early Buddhism that suggested that it was the sramana/mystic influence in the Vedic/Aryan teachings that lead them to incorporate teachings on reincarnation and the benefits of renunciation. The earliest Vedic texts make no mention of reincarnation and they teach a ‘worldly piety’ as the proper form of religious conduct. The earliest Vedic texts treat the ‘outsiders’ with suspicion.They were wandering ascetics who would wander into Brahminical settlements! Later on, their doctrines are incorporated along side the ideal of ‘worldly piety’. It is portrayed as an alternative approach to the religious life - but not in the early strata of the Vedas - the tri-vidya. Buddhist teachings are part of a long genesis of philosophical ideas that have developed these themes over time. The Buddha’s awakening sorted out all the confusion of ideas that were prevalent in his lifetime.

Buddhism is not just for monks sitting around all day. Buddhism is the path of the warrior, conquering his own selfishness and delusion, showing wisdom and compassion for others. A man ruled by anger and fear is a man without honor, for himself or others.

Monks sitting around all day? Do you imagine them meditating or eating ice cream and watching tv?

If I could have got enlightened eating ice-cream I’d totally be there by now! :icecream:

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Me too! :slight_smile:

No. It depends on whether one seeks the monastic life to escape the world or to be more fully engaged in it. Bhikkhu Bodhi, Ajahn Brahm, Thich Nhat Hanh, etc. have chosen the latter.

To get to the level of those great teachers we must practice for years in supportive conditions. There’s a lot of sitting around knowing the heart-mind before one can have the wisdom and inner peace to be of selfless benefit to the world.

We see people all the time trying to ‘fix the world’ who’s identity view gets in the way.

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I agree. One cannot give out of deprivation. We have to first work ourselves in order to then be able to truly help others.

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It’s funny how we all perceive differently, and all based on our experiences and our perceptions of them. As giving as he is, and really I think his whole life is a gift, I will always see Ajahn Brahm as a meditation monk.

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Meditation can be used as a tool to be more fully engaged in the world, rather than excuse to escape the world. All my favorite meditators use meditation for this reason.

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I agree.

Isn’t escape the ultimate point of the Buddha-Dhamma?

I suggest therefore that it’s both.

Going back to Ajahn Brahm, when I consider what it is he gives so much for, I come back to: so others can begin to have an idea of the wonderful, joyful, peaceful escapes/escape he might have experienced himself.

Some monks/nuns just aren’t cut out for being with people lots. Out of compassion to them, I let them be. That is my gift to them. I let them meditate. Out of compassion to the world, I let them be, let them create peaceful vibes around them, intentionally and unintentionally sending this out into the world, like pure air, diluting the grosser stuff. Such people, such hermits, good of heart, but quiet of way, also will always effect those around them and thus give to the world in this way too. They’re role models too.

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The realization of this Truth, i.e., to see things as they are without illusion or
ignorance is the extinction of craving ‘thirst’ and the cessation (Nirodha) of dukkha,
which is Nirvana. It is interesting and useful to remember here the Mahayana view
of Nirvana as not being different from Samsara. The same thing is Samsara or
Nirvana according to the way you look at it - subjectively or objectively. This
Mahayana view was probably developed out of the ideas found in the original
Theravada Pali texts, to which we have just referred in our brief discussion.
https://sites.google.com/site/whatbuddhataught/chapter-4

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Ahhh…I see :slight_smile: That’s totally fine.

But you see, for me Nibbana means “to put out a flame”, to “extinguish” something. This is, I believe, the literal English translation of Nibbana.

(Interestingly, in the Singhalese language, “ni-va-n-na” also means to extinguish something or to put it out, or to cool it down completely. The Singhalese word for Nibbana is Ni-ver-na, which is phonetically very close to ni-va-n-na.)

Regardless, it is clear to me that a kind hearted person, who has no people skills whatsoever and for whatever reason…I mean they might be mute or completely deaf…who is a skilled meditator/is intent on becoming a skilled meditator, ought to be supported out of compassion for ourselves and for what they do in fact give to the world in their own way; as I’ve already touched upon.

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