Lecture: Does Secular Buddhism exist? Ajahn Brahmali

The Buddha described the topic of kamma as being very complex. Also, he classified kamma into various categories (in terms of kamma that can come into fruitarian in the same life, the next life, etc.), and also explained in terms of the criteria needed for a kamma to happen. Therefore testing kamma in rebirth cases would be very difficult. However as I stated in my other comment, our attachments towards specific phenomena certainly appears to manifest in the next life.

What do you mean by “Samyukta/Samyutta Buddhism”?

Damn, and here I thought vegan kamma was special :sweat_smile:

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I think any recollections of non-human forms by children are ignored by researchers simply because such accounts cannot be verified (unlike cases where the children provide a name of a city, names of people, etc.). However, in one of Dr. Jim Tucker’s books, it is stated that some children report having existed in different realms (non-human) and he says that it is difficult ignore these statements in the context of other statements that the same child has made (on previous human births) that have been verified. Also, in Dr. Jim Tucker’s book “Return to life” he has a section on animal rebirth (see pages 38 - 42). One of the stories that were quite interesting is a story of a boy (in Thailand) who recalled the life of being a python in his previous life! It seems, this child also had a skin-condition (that the child was born with) called “ichthyosis,” a condition that caused his body, particularly the lower half, to be covered in scales!

I think it is the last thought that counts - rather than observing the five precepts, although observing the precepts could influence the last thought moment before death. Regarding recollections, people who died as a result of an accident in the previous life appear to be able to recall more than others regarding their past lives, although the latter category is not absent.

I refer to Early Buddhism or Buddhism based on Samyutta/Samyukta discourses.
Cf.: Ven. Yinshun: Samyutta/Samyukta Buddhism

That is, Early Buddhism (unified Sangha) had two historical ages:
Samyutta/Samyukta Buddhism and Nikaya/Agama Buddhism (based on the principal four Nikayas/Agamas).

After Early Buddhism, there was the period of Sectarian Buddhism (Early Buddhist Schools) in India.

Do you have a citation for this though?

In the main texts on kamma in the MN, it mentions how people doing unethical actions could be reborn in a lower realm, or as a human. Also, the texts say that it is extremely rare (like a sea turtle going through a single hole) to be born as a human from the animal/lower realms afaik. So human birth is rare in samsāric terms, but if we are already humans, I think it’s actually extremely likely that most humans are reborn as humans.

Most humans do normal human things. Not super unethical, not super ethical. The really good people with lots of merit go to higher realms a lot of the times depending on prior kammic conditions. The really bad people go to lower realms. But if someone is attached to human things, lives a normal human life, and their mind is constantly inclining to human existence, all of the Buddha’s teachings on rebirth would seem to point to this person being reborn a human IMO.

I think later on, things got a lot more wild. Throw flowers at the Buddha and you go to heaven for aeons and aeons and become a paccekabuddha. But in Early Buddhism and the historical Buddha’s teachings, I see the human realm as just another type of sensual / animal-like existence that is higher than most wild animals and lower than sensual gods. We do lots of unrestrained things that are perfectly expected of humans, so it wouldn’t make sense to go to hell for them unless they are particularly bad kamma and inclinations of mind.

Mettā

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As stated by the Buddha, kamma is a very complex phenomena (as I have stated in one of my other comments here). Also, as I stated, attachments that children display seem to connect very well to their previous personalities.

I don’t think this is a problem at all. Also, it is the last thought before death that contributes towards the next realm of existence.

People don’t do only good or bad - most do a mix of things. It is said that the last thought moment we have (during death) is what counts towards the next birth. What scientific data do you mean (that “doesn’t align neatly with beliefs”)? In the American case of a child named ‘Ryan’ - he recalled seeing numbers in the hospital wall (something like that - I remember reading in the book) during his death - perhaps that neutral thought led him to a human birth. His case is documented here: Boy Says He Remembers Past Life as Hollywood Agent

:grin: Thinking that one is special due to being vegetarian etc., is actually bad kamma! (conceit!!) But vegetarianism itself is not bad. Anyway, it is the last thought that counts and being a ‘good’ person contributes towards having a ‘good’ last thought!

You keep repeating this, but it’s actually a myth. The Buddha explicitly says otherwise. Check out SN 55.21 and SN 55.22. Bhante Sujato and Ajahn Brahmali have also offered several kamma myth-busting courses discussing this. I understand it’s a common opinion though.

Mettā :slight_smile:

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It’s my understanding that the general pattern is indicative of the law of kamma. Good gets good, bad gets bad. It’s more of specific circumstances that is hard to think about. Which deeds would ripen when and where and which results is linked with which deeds. That’s the application of the general principle.

Physics wise, it’s like thermodynamics, statistical mechanics. The large law of the averages is very reliable, increase temperature of gas, pressure increases when the volume stays the same. But go zoom in deep into one molecule of gas and try to predict where that molecule would go, it’s very hard to calculate.

One has to know the theory before being able to judge if the data fits or do not fit into the theory.

It’s akin to seeing “oh, there’s winter, there’s cold snap. There’s still snow. Thus global warming is fake!” (the quotation part is false). This is not understanding how global warming actually works. There’s no prediction which says there cannot be winter anymore or snow anymore.

The law of kamma is like global warming, climate change. The specific circumstances on a very narrow window of observation is akin to local weather measurements. One has to collect a lot of data across a lot of time frame to be able to see the general pattern as I described above with divine eye.

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But is continuation of attachment to particular habits, objects and physical characteristics after death something that the Buddha taught (outside of the mythological teachings, Jataka etc).

I thought I did, but wasn‘t able to find anything.

Edit: Bhante @NgXinZhao kindly provided SN56.104:

“… the sentient beings who die as humans and are reborn as humans are few, while those who die as humans and are reborn in the ghost realm are many …”

I assumed that the fact that our biological hardware made us prone to a lot of dumb behavior was part of the „life isn‘t fair, neither is kamma“ thing. Why wouldn‘t it make sense to create going-to-hell kamma with human behavior considered normal by other humans?

It was just a joke. Saw your fruitarian line and couldn‘t resist.

Very apt simile! But -

Do we know the theory? While many of the central mechanisms of climate change are well explained and can be observed, I was under the impression that the Buddha declined to talk about the complexities of kamma beyond some bare-bone facts, saying that people would waste time and go mad trying to understand it.
You‘re talking about the divine eye, but since demonstrations of psychic powers with non-monastics present are generally taboo, laypeople can‘t know who knows the theory, leaving them groping around in the dark.

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Isn’t it already in the suttas?

Those who imagine evil where there is none, and do not see evil where it is—upholding false views, they go to states of woe.

Those who discern the wrong as wrong and the right as right—upholding right views, they go to realms of bliss.
SuttaCentral

https://suttacentral.net/an8.11/en/bodhi?reference=none&highlight=false

“When my mind was thus concentrated, purified, cleansed, unblemished, rid of defilement, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away and rebirth of beings. With the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, I saw beings passing away and being reborn, inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate, and I understood how beings fare in accordance with their kamma thus: ‘These beings who engaged in misconduct by body, speech, and mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong view, and undertook kamma based on wrong view, with the breakup of the body, after death, have been reborn in the plane of misery, in a bad destination, in the lower world, in hell; but these beings who engaged in good conduct by body, speech, and mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right view, and undertook kamma based on right view, with the breakup of the body, after death, have been reborn in a good destination, in the heavenly world.’ Thus with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, I saw beings passing away and being reborn, inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate, and I understood how beings fare in accordance with their kamma.

https://suttacentral.net/an9.68/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin

“Mendicants, there are five destinations. What five? Hell, the animal realm, the ghost realm, humanity, and the gods. These are the five destinations.

To give up these five destinations you should develop the four kinds of mindfulness meditation. …”

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.123-125/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin

“… the sentient beings who die as animals and are reborn as gods are few, while those who die as animals and are reborn in hell, or the animal realm, or the ghost realm are many.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.104/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin

“… the sentient beings who die as humans and are reborn as humans are few, while those who die as humans and are reborn in the ghost realm are many …”

https://suttacentral.net/an8.40/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin

“Mendicants, the killing of living creatures, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. The minimum result it leads to for a human being is a short life span.

Stealing, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. The minimum result it leads to for a human being is loss of wealth.

Sexual misconduct, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. The minimum result it leads to for a human being is rivalry and enmity.

Lying, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. The minimum result it leads to for a human being is false accusations.

Divisive speech, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. The minimum result it leads to for a human being is being divided against friends.

Harsh speech, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. The minimum result it leads to for a human being is hearing disagreeable things.

Talking nonsense, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. The minimum result it leads to for a human being is that no-one takes what you say seriously.

Taking alcoholic drinks that cause negligence, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. The minimum result it leads to for a human being is madness.”

There’s just too many examples of Buddha linking action to results.

SN42.13 Not every deeds, one can trace the results easily. Why expect just seeing 2 lifetimes, we can see the link between action and results so fast?

I understand killing living creatures and its result. And I understand how those who kill living creatures practice so that when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell. I understand stealing … sexual misconduct … lying … divisive speech … harsh speech … talking nonsense … covetousness … ill will … wrong view and its result. And I understand how those who have wrong view practice so that when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.

There are some ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and view: ‘Everyone who kills living creatures experiences pain and sadness in the present life. Everyone who steals … commits sexual misconduct … lies experiences pain and sadness in the present life.’

But you can see someone, garlanded and adorned, nicely bathed and anointed, hair and beard dressed, taking his pleasure with women as if he were a king. You might ask someone: ‘Mister, what did that man do?’ And they’d reply: ‘Mister, that man attacked the king’s enemy and killed them. The king was delighted and gave him this reward. That’s why he’s garlanded and adorned, nicely bathed and anointed, hair and beard dressed, taking his pleasure with women as if he were a king.’

And you can see someone else, his arms tied tightly behind his back with a strong rope. His head is shaven and he’s marched from street to street and from square to square to the beating of a harsh drum. Then he’s taken out the south gate and there, to the south of the city, they chop off his head. You might ask someone: ‘Mister, what did that man do?’ And they’d reply: ‘Mister, that man is an enemy of the king, and he has murdered a man or a woman. That’s why the rulers arrested him and inflicted such punishment.’

What do you think, chief? Have you seen or heard of such a thing?”

“Sir, we have seen it and heard of it, and we will hear of it again.”

“Since this is so, the ascetics and brahmins whose view is that everyone who kills living creatures experiences pain and sadness in the present life: are they right or wrong?”

“They’re wrong, sir.”

“But those who speak hollow, false nonsense: are they moral or immoral?”

“Immoral, sir.”

“And are those who are immoral, of bad character practicing wrongly or rightly?”

“They’re practicing wrongly, sir.”

“And do those who are practicing wrongly have wrong view or right view?”

“They have wrong view, sir.”

“But is it appropriate to have confidence in those of wrong view?”

“No, sir.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn42.8/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin

“Sir, this is how Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta teaches his disciples: ‘Everyone who kills a living creature, steals, commits sexual misconduct, or lies goes to a place of loss, to hell. You’re led on by what you usually live by.’ This is how Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta teaches his disciples.”

“‘You’re led on by what you usually live by’: if this were true, then, according to what Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta says, no-one would go to a place of loss, to hell.

What do you think, chief? Take a person who kills living creatures. If we compare periods of time during the day and night, which is more frequent: the occasions when they’re killing or when they’re not killing?”

“The occasions when they’re killing are less frequent, while the occasions when they’re not killing are more frequent.”

“‘You’re led on by what you usually live by’: if this were true, then, according to what Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta says, no-one would go to a place of loss, to hell.

What do you think, chief? Take a person who steals …

Take a person who commits sexual misconduct …

Take a person who lies. If we compare periods of time during the day and night, which is more frequent: the occasions when they’re lying or when they’re not lying?”

“The occasions when they’re lying are less frequent, while the occasions when they’re not lying are more frequent.”

“‘You’re led on by what you usually live by’: if this were true, then, according to what Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta says, no-one would go to a place of loss, to hell.

Take some teacher who has this doctrine and view: ‘Everyone who kills a living creature, steals, commits sexual misconduct, or lies goes to a place of loss, to hell.’ And there’s a disciple who is devoted to that teacher. They think: ‘My teacher has this doctrine and view: “Everyone who kills a living creature, steals, commits sexual misconduct, or lies goes to a place of loss, to hell.” But I’ve killed living creatures … stolen … committed sexual misconduct … or lied.’ They get the view: ‘I too am going to a place of loss, to hell.’ Unless they give up that speech and thought, and let go of that view, they will be cast down to hell.

But consider when a Realized One arises in the world, perfected, a fully awakened Buddha, accomplished in knowledge and conduct, holy, knower of the world, supreme guide for those who wish to train, teacher of gods and humans, awakened, blessed. In many ways he criticizes and denounces killing living creatures, saying: ‘Stop killing living creatures!’ He criticizes and denounces stealing … sexual misconduct … lying, saying: ‘Stop lying!’ And there’s a disciple who is devoted to that teacher. Then they reflect: ‘In many ways the Buddha criticizes and denounces killing living creatures, saying: “Stop killing living creatures!” But I have killed living creatures to a certain extent. That’s not right, it’s not good, and I feel remorseful because of it. But I can’t undo what I have done.’ Reflecting like this, they give up killing living creatures, and in future they don’t kill living creatures. That’s how to give up this bad deed and get past it.

‘In many ways the Buddha criticizes and denounces stealing …’

‘In many ways the Buddha criticizes and denounces sexual misconduct …’

‘In many ways the Buddha criticizes and denounces lying, saying: “Stop lying!” But I have lied to a certain extent. That’s not right, it’s not good, and I feel remorseful because of it. But I can’t undo what I have done.’ Reflecting like this, they give up lying, and in future they refrain from lying. That’s how to give up this bad deed and get past it.

They give up killing living creatures. They give up stealing. They give up sexual misconduct. They give up lying. They give up divisive speech. They give up harsh speech. They give up talking nonsense. They give up covetousness. They give up ill will and malevolence. They give up wrong view and have right view.

That noble disciple is rid of desire, rid of ill will, unconfused, aware, and mindful. They meditate spreading a heart full of love to one direction, and to the second, and to the third, and to the fourth. In the same way above, below, across, everywhere, all around, they spread a heart full of love to the whole world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will. Suppose there was a powerful horn blower. They’d easily make themselves heard in the four quarters. In the same way, when the heart’s release by love has been developed and cultivated like this, any limited deeds they’ve done don’t remain or persist there.

Then that noble disciple is rid of desire, rid of ill will, unconfused, aware, and mindful. They meditate spreading a heart full of compassion … They meditate spreading a heart full of rejoicing … They meditate spreading a heart full of equanimity to one direction, and to the second, and to the third, and to the fourth. In the same way above, below, across, everywhere, all around, they spread a heart full of equanimity to the whole world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will. Suppose there was a powerful horn blower. They’d easily make themselves heard in the four quarters. In the same way, when the heart’s release by equanimity has been developed and cultivated like this, any limited deeds they’ve done don’t remain or persist there.”

What I was getting at is that, yes, the suttas are clear about the link of action and result, however the complexity of the interplay of different kinds of kamma isn‘t explained in any detail because the Buddha determined that spending too much time and thought on it would be detrimental to practice. Thus, the scriptures give an incomplete account of the workings of kamma, and we don‘t have much theory beyond „do good, get good“.

By the way, thanks for the quote here:

Turns out I did remember correctly after all. I‘ll update my previous post for @Vaddha.

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Thank you for your comment. It has been stated that after one has reached a certain stage of understanding/awakening (e.g. stream entry or even lower such as: saddhanusari and dhammanusari) then one will not be born in lower realms - because their minds are not capable of ever reaching highly unwholesome states (even at the death moment). So, they do not have to ‘fear’ as stated by the Buddha in the two suttas you mention (by the way, both these suttas refer to the same individual). The Buddha was able to confidently state this regarding this individual because he was capable of knowing others’ mind-states (and spiritual “attainments”).

As I see it, although the suttas do not directly discuss the last thought moment influencing rebirth, there are several indirect mentions of this possibility. For example, Dhammapada Verse 151 tells the story of Queen Mallika who had done many wholesome deeds during her lifetime - however it seems at the time of her death, she remembered a lie that she had told her husband (the king) that resulted in rebirth in a lower realm. I have also heard (Samadhi sutta?) that if one dies when practising deep concentration meditations (in deep absorptions) he/she will be reborn in one of the fine material brahma worlds corresponding to the state of concentration.

No one can wilfully control one’s last thought at the time of death (unless one has reached some degree of awakening where one can be mindful of what comes up without ruminating on them) and this is probably why the Buddha didn’t tell people to wilfully control the last thought (because it is impossible).

Also, in Bhikku Bodhi’s translation of the Abhidhamma (Link: https://www.saraniya.com/books/meditation/Bhikkhu_Bodhi-Comprehensive_Manual_of_Abhidhamma.pdf ): talks about how different kammas can come to the mind at the death moment, and also present circumstances (e.g. seeing various objects, etc.) related to his life can bring about various thoughts and all these things can influence their last thought and consequently the rebirth. I find this a very plausible explanation because we only have one thought moment at a time that happen in the present moment and the death moment thought can influence the next life.

I do not know about the courses offered regarding this, but based on what I know, although Ajahn Brahmali finds the abhidhamma to be boring, he does not totally reject it. I also think these (last thought, etc.) are matters that do not relate to practicing the noble eightfold path, and are therefore not things useful to argue about! With Metta :slightly_smiling_face:.

Yes! It is about attaching/clinging to the five aggregates. This is explained in many discourses such as in the Khandha Sutta: Aggregates (SN 22.48). The following article might also be useful for this as it provides many references: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12144-017-9631-7

I wonder if this section from MN 136 might form the germ of that emphasis in later traditions on the last thought moment before death:

Now, Ānanda, take the case of the person here who killed living creatures … and had wrong view, and who, when their body breaks up, after death, is reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell. They must have done a bad deed to be experienced as painful either previously or later, or else at the time of death they undertook wrong view. And that’s why, when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.

Now, Ānanda, take the case of the person here who killed living creatures … and had wrong view, and who is reborn in a heavenly realm. They must have done a good deed to be experienced as pleasant either previously or later, or else at the time of death they undertook right view. And that’s why, when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.

Now, Ānanda, take the case of the person here who refrained from killing living creatures … and had right view, and who is reborn in a heavenly realm. They must have done a good deed to be experienced as pleasant either previously or later, or else at the time of death they undertook right view. And that’s why, when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.

Now, Ānanda, take the case of the person here who refrained from killing living creatures … and had right view, and who is reborn in hell. They must have done a bad deed to be experienced as painful either previously or later, or else at the time of death they undertook wrong view. And that’s why, when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.

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Please explain more what these suttas are saying. Thank you :slightly_smiling_face:

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