Lecture: Does Secular Buddhism exist? Ajahn Brahmali

Isn’t it already in the suttas?

Those who imagine evil where there is none, and do not see evil where it is—upholding false views, they go to states of woe.

Those who discern the wrong as wrong and the right as right—upholding right views, they go to realms of bliss.
SuttaCentral

https://suttacentral.net/an8.11/en/bodhi?reference=none&highlight=false

“When my mind was thus concentrated, purified, cleansed, unblemished, rid of defilement, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away and rebirth of beings. With the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, I saw beings passing away and being reborn, inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate, and I understood how beings fare in accordance with their kamma thus: ‘These beings who engaged in misconduct by body, speech, and mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong view, and undertook kamma based on wrong view, with the breakup of the body, after death, have been reborn in the plane of misery, in a bad destination, in the lower world, in hell; but these beings who engaged in good conduct by body, speech, and mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right view, and undertook kamma based on right view, with the breakup of the body, after death, have been reborn in a good destination, in the heavenly world.’ Thus with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, I saw beings passing away and being reborn, inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate, and I understood how beings fare in accordance with their kamma.

https://suttacentral.net/an9.68/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin

“Mendicants, there are five destinations. What five? Hell, the animal realm, the ghost realm, humanity, and the gods. These are the five destinations.

To give up these five destinations you should develop the four kinds of mindfulness meditation. …”

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.123-125/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin

“… the sentient beings who die as animals and are reborn as gods are few, while those who die as animals and are reborn in hell, or the animal realm, or the ghost realm are many.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.104/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin

“… the sentient beings who die as humans and are reborn as humans are few, while those who die as humans and are reborn in the ghost realm are many …”

https://suttacentral.net/an8.40/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin

“Mendicants, the killing of living creatures, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. The minimum result it leads to for a human being is a short life span.

Stealing, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. The minimum result it leads to for a human being is loss of wealth.

Sexual misconduct, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. The minimum result it leads to for a human being is rivalry and enmity.

Lying, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. The minimum result it leads to for a human being is false accusations.

Divisive speech, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. The minimum result it leads to for a human being is being divided against friends.

Harsh speech, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. The minimum result it leads to for a human being is hearing disagreeable things.

Talking nonsense, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. The minimum result it leads to for a human being is that no-one takes what you say seriously.

Taking alcoholic drinks that cause negligence, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. The minimum result it leads to for a human being is madness.”

There’s just too many examples of Buddha linking action to results.

SN42.13 Not every deeds, one can trace the results easily. Why expect just seeing 2 lifetimes, we can see the link between action and results so fast?

I understand killing living creatures and its result. And I understand how those who kill living creatures practice so that when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell. I understand stealing … sexual misconduct … lying … divisive speech … harsh speech … talking nonsense … covetousness … ill will … wrong view and its result. And I understand how those who have wrong view practice so that when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.

There are some ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and view: ‘Everyone who kills living creatures experiences pain and sadness in the present life. Everyone who steals … commits sexual misconduct … lies experiences pain and sadness in the present life.’

But you can see someone, garlanded and adorned, nicely bathed and anointed, hair and beard dressed, taking his pleasure with women as if he were a king. You might ask someone: ‘Mister, what did that man do?’ And they’d reply: ‘Mister, that man attacked the king’s enemy and killed them. The king was delighted and gave him this reward. That’s why he’s garlanded and adorned, nicely bathed and anointed, hair and beard dressed, taking his pleasure with women as if he were a king.’

And you can see someone else, his arms tied tightly behind his back with a strong rope. His head is shaven and he’s marched from street to street and from square to square to the beating of a harsh drum. Then he’s taken out the south gate and there, to the south of the city, they chop off his head. You might ask someone: ‘Mister, what did that man do?’ And they’d reply: ‘Mister, that man is an enemy of the king, and he has murdered a man or a woman. That’s why the rulers arrested him and inflicted such punishment.’

What do you think, chief? Have you seen or heard of such a thing?”

“Sir, we have seen it and heard of it, and we will hear of it again.”

“Since this is so, the ascetics and brahmins whose view is that everyone who kills living creatures experiences pain and sadness in the present life: are they right or wrong?”

“They’re wrong, sir.”

“But those who speak hollow, false nonsense: are they moral or immoral?”

“Immoral, sir.”

“And are those who are immoral, of bad character practicing wrongly or rightly?”

“They’re practicing wrongly, sir.”

“And do those who are practicing wrongly have wrong view or right view?”

“They have wrong view, sir.”

“But is it appropriate to have confidence in those of wrong view?”

“No, sir.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn42.8/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin

“Sir, this is how Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta teaches his disciples: ‘Everyone who kills a living creature, steals, commits sexual misconduct, or lies goes to a place of loss, to hell. You’re led on by what you usually live by.’ This is how Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta teaches his disciples.”

“‘You’re led on by what you usually live by’: if this were true, then, according to what Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta says, no-one would go to a place of loss, to hell.

What do you think, chief? Take a person who kills living creatures. If we compare periods of time during the day and night, which is more frequent: the occasions when they’re killing or when they’re not killing?”

“The occasions when they’re killing are less frequent, while the occasions when they’re not killing are more frequent.”

“‘You’re led on by what you usually live by’: if this were true, then, according to what Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta says, no-one would go to a place of loss, to hell.

What do you think, chief? Take a person who steals …

Take a person who commits sexual misconduct …

Take a person who lies. If we compare periods of time during the day and night, which is more frequent: the occasions when they’re lying or when they’re not lying?”

“The occasions when they’re lying are less frequent, while the occasions when they’re not lying are more frequent.”

“‘You’re led on by what you usually live by’: if this were true, then, according to what Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta says, no-one would go to a place of loss, to hell.

Take some teacher who has this doctrine and view: ‘Everyone who kills a living creature, steals, commits sexual misconduct, or lies goes to a place of loss, to hell.’ And there’s a disciple who is devoted to that teacher. They think: ‘My teacher has this doctrine and view: “Everyone who kills a living creature, steals, commits sexual misconduct, or lies goes to a place of loss, to hell.” But I’ve killed living creatures … stolen … committed sexual misconduct … or lied.’ They get the view: ‘I too am going to a place of loss, to hell.’ Unless they give up that speech and thought, and let go of that view, they will be cast down to hell.

But consider when a Realized One arises in the world, perfected, a fully awakened Buddha, accomplished in knowledge and conduct, holy, knower of the world, supreme guide for those who wish to train, teacher of gods and humans, awakened, blessed. In many ways he criticizes and denounces killing living creatures, saying: ‘Stop killing living creatures!’ He criticizes and denounces stealing … sexual misconduct … lying, saying: ‘Stop lying!’ And there’s a disciple who is devoted to that teacher. Then they reflect: ‘In many ways the Buddha criticizes and denounces killing living creatures, saying: “Stop killing living creatures!” But I have killed living creatures to a certain extent. That’s not right, it’s not good, and I feel remorseful because of it. But I can’t undo what I have done.’ Reflecting like this, they give up killing living creatures, and in future they don’t kill living creatures. That’s how to give up this bad deed and get past it.

‘In many ways the Buddha criticizes and denounces stealing …’

‘In many ways the Buddha criticizes and denounces sexual misconduct …’

‘In many ways the Buddha criticizes and denounces lying, saying: “Stop lying!” But I have lied to a certain extent. That’s not right, it’s not good, and I feel remorseful because of it. But I can’t undo what I have done.’ Reflecting like this, they give up lying, and in future they refrain from lying. That’s how to give up this bad deed and get past it.

They give up killing living creatures. They give up stealing. They give up sexual misconduct. They give up lying. They give up divisive speech. They give up harsh speech. They give up talking nonsense. They give up covetousness. They give up ill will and malevolence. They give up wrong view and have right view.

That noble disciple is rid of desire, rid of ill will, unconfused, aware, and mindful. They meditate spreading a heart full of love to one direction, and to the second, and to the third, and to the fourth. In the same way above, below, across, everywhere, all around, they spread a heart full of love to the whole world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will. Suppose there was a powerful horn blower. They’d easily make themselves heard in the four quarters. In the same way, when the heart’s release by love has been developed and cultivated like this, any limited deeds they’ve done don’t remain or persist there.

Then that noble disciple is rid of desire, rid of ill will, unconfused, aware, and mindful. They meditate spreading a heart full of compassion … They meditate spreading a heart full of rejoicing … They meditate spreading a heart full of equanimity to one direction, and to the second, and to the third, and to the fourth. In the same way above, below, across, everywhere, all around, they spread a heart full of equanimity to the whole world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will. Suppose there was a powerful horn blower. They’d easily make themselves heard in the four quarters. In the same way, when the heart’s release by equanimity has been developed and cultivated like this, any limited deeds they’ve done don’t remain or persist there.”

What I was getting at is that, yes, the suttas are clear about the link of action and result, however the complexity of the interplay of different kinds of kamma isn‘t explained in any detail because the Buddha determined that spending too much time and thought on it would be detrimental to practice. Thus, the scriptures give an incomplete account of the workings of kamma, and we don‘t have much theory beyond „do good, get good“.

By the way, thanks for the quote here:

Turns out I did remember correctly after all. I‘ll update my previous post for @Vaddha.

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Thank you for your comment. It has been stated that after one has reached a certain stage of understanding/awakening (e.g. stream entry or even lower such as: saddhanusari and dhammanusari) then one will not be born in lower realms - because their minds are not capable of ever reaching highly unwholesome states (even at the death moment). So, they do not have to ‘fear’ as stated by the Buddha in the two suttas you mention (by the way, both these suttas refer to the same individual). The Buddha was able to confidently state this regarding this individual because he was capable of knowing others’ mind-states (and spiritual “attainments”).

As I see it, although the suttas do not directly discuss the last thought moment influencing rebirth, there are several indirect mentions of this possibility. For example, Dhammapada Verse 151 tells the story of Queen Mallika who had done many wholesome deeds during her lifetime - however it seems at the time of her death, she remembered a lie that she had told her husband (the king) that resulted in rebirth in a lower realm. I have also heard (Samadhi sutta?) that if one dies when practising deep concentration meditations (in deep absorptions) he/she will be reborn in one of the fine material brahma worlds corresponding to the state of concentration.

No one can wilfully control one’s last thought at the time of death (unless one has reached some degree of awakening where one can be mindful of what comes up without ruminating on them) and this is probably why the Buddha didn’t tell people to wilfully control the last thought (because it is impossible).

Also, in Bhikku Bodhi’s translation of the Abhidhamma (Link: https://www.saraniya.com/books/meditation/Bhikkhu_Bodhi-Comprehensive_Manual_of_Abhidhamma.pdf ): talks about how different kammas can come to the mind at the death moment, and also present circumstances (e.g. seeing various objects, etc.) related to his life can bring about various thoughts and all these things can influence their last thought and consequently the rebirth. I find this a very plausible explanation because we only have one thought moment at a time that happen in the present moment and the death moment thought can influence the next life.

I do not know about the courses offered regarding this, but based on what I know, although Ajahn Brahmali finds the abhidhamma to be boring, he does not totally reject it. I also think these (last thought, etc.) are matters that do not relate to practicing the noble eightfold path, and are therefore not things useful to argue about! With Metta :slightly_smiling_face:.

Yes! It is about attaching/clinging to the five aggregates. This is explained in many discourses such as in the Khandha Sutta: Aggregates (SN 22.48). The following article might also be useful for this as it provides many references: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12144-017-9631-7

I wonder if this section from MN 136 might form the germ of that emphasis in later traditions on the last thought moment before death:

Now, Ānanda, take the case of the person here who killed living creatures … and had wrong view, and who, when their body breaks up, after death, is reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell. They must have done a bad deed to be experienced as painful either previously or later, or else at the time of death they undertook wrong view. And that’s why, when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.

Now, Ānanda, take the case of the person here who killed living creatures … and had wrong view, and who is reborn in a heavenly realm. They must have done a good deed to be experienced as pleasant either previously or later, or else at the time of death they undertook right view. And that’s why, when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.

Now, Ānanda, take the case of the person here who refrained from killing living creatures … and had right view, and who is reborn in a heavenly realm. They must have done a good deed to be experienced as pleasant either previously or later, or else at the time of death they undertook right view. And that’s why, when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.

Now, Ānanda, take the case of the person here who refrained from killing living creatures … and had right view, and who is reborn in hell. They must have done a bad deed to be experienced as painful either previously or later, or else at the time of death they undertook wrong view. And that’s why, when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.

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Please explain more what these suttas are saying. Thank you :slightly_smiling_face:

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A great find! Thanks!!

While I recognize suttas mention this, I do think it’s significant that they are stock passages not in the main context of kamma/dependent arising. Still, we should acknowledge them as valid parts of the canon.

I understand ‘petas’ in Early Buddhism as basically beings with attachments who are stuck in a ghost-like existence. The petas are a combination of pitrs and pretas—ancestors and ghosts—of Brahmanism. I remember a story where Ajahn Fuang, a Thai monk, said that it’s surprising how many people stick around as ghosts for a period of time after they die. I think these states can be long or very brief depending on the person, and there are lots of past life memories in Ian Stevenson’s research that talk of in-between ghost like states as I understand it. Some of them have even been confirmed as having remembered verifiable events while in the ghost state.

Still, I think it’s significant that in the Cula- and Maha-kammavibhanga Suttas the Buddha makes explicit mentions of beings who do bad things and are reborn in lower realms, or as humans with some worse karmic conditions.

Well it certainly could. If ‘human things’ that were culturally accepted included lots of violent killing and whatnot. Think justified religious wars and so on. But what I mean is normal human behavior that’s not good nor particularly unethical. Like all the people addicted to entertainment, music, food, etc. These are all quite human things inclining the mind to human existence. Then you have all the obsession with romantic love, relationships, marriage, dating, friend circles, and the arguing / jealousy / emotions that go into that. None of these are ethical, but they aren’t the same as creating violent, deceitful, and sexually harmful behaviors or thought patterns for instance (as in the 5 precepts).

Mettā :slight_smile:

Mahānāma goes to see the Buddha and he feels lots of faith in Buddha/Dhamma/Sangha. So he cultivates mindfulness and wholesome recollections. But he realizes that afterwards, he goes back to his busy lay life in the city, loses his mindfulness, and lives a more scattered life with his mind kind of wandering and agitated. So he’s worried that if he dies in those times when the mind is wandering or agitated/distracted, he’s going to have a bad rebirth. Basically, he’s worried about his last thought moments.

The Buddha comforts Mahānāma and tells him not to fear. He says that people who have well established their mind in faith and other wholesome qualities, to the point where those qualities are well-rooted and natural, do not need to be afraid of dying. No matter if their last moments are in a busy, less mindful state, the general quality of their mind as it has been cultivated over many years of faith, virtue, generosity, etc. will be the basis for where their mind goes. In other words, our mind inclines to what it has been well habituated to and established in; not just the last thought moment or scenario.

There are exceptions. Of course people can have dramatic pre-mortem shifts that affect their rebirth. But this does not mean it is essential doctrine.

It’s important to remember that the whole emphasis on ‘last thought moments’ is built around the Theravadin sectarian assumption of momentary rebirth consciousness rather than the gradual, flowing process with an in-between state in Early Buddhism. The Theravadins felt that they needed this momentary mind-moment theory of rebirth for historical reasons—afraid of a reified notion of a self or transmigrator, or so it seems. Many other schools accepted the in-between state, and there are clear references to it from the Buddha in the EBTs.

Mettā :slight_smile:

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Thank you K. While I have no intention to debate the matter or regard my impression as true, my impression is the Buddha was saying Mahānāma, due to his past development, will have skillful thoughts at the ending of his time. Regardless, this is a lovely sutta to read. Kind regards :slightly_smiling_face:

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Yes, I suppose it could be interpreted this way.

To me, it doesn’t matter in practice. If the last thought moment is just based on what our mind has cultivated throughout our life, we might as well not even mention the last moment because we would have no control and it automatically is based on the general inclinations of the mind.

Still, I find the rejection of the in-between state in Theravadin doctrine potentially relevant to this.

Mettā :slight_smile:

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https://suttacentral.net/an6.120-139/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin

This says Mahānāma the Sakyan is certain about the Realized One, see the deathless, and live having realized the deathless. What six? Experiential confidence in the Buddha, the teaching, and the Saṅgha, and noble ethics, knowledge, and freedom. Having these six qualities the lay follower Sāragga is certain about the Realized One, sees the deathless, and lives having realized the deathless.”

That means he is a stream winner, thus no need to worry.

It doesn’t negate the last thought moment thing.

I am not sure how widely known the Abhidhamma/commentary explanation of how kamma works to produce rebirth is.

The following are numbered according to priority of fruition for kamma at death.

  1. Weighty kamma, the 5 heavy evil kamma or Jhāna attainments. Evil being higher priority.
  2. Near death kamma (within control), this is why people wants to recall good deeds near death or have monks chant for them at deathbed.
  3. Habitual kamma.
  4. Miscellaneous.

So if don’t have 1, then go to 2, and so on. The general inclination of mind is no.3.

I don’t think the Buddha spoke about physical characteristics (birthmarks, wounds etc) or personality traits being carried over from life to life. Or of children spontaneously remembering past lives.

Not very often, but there are instances of it.

One from the Vinaya:

At that time there was a monk who was a regurgitator. After regurgitating, he would swallow. The monks complained and criticized him, “This monk is eating at the wrong time.” They told the Buddha.

“This monk has only recently passed away as a cow. I allow a regurgitator to regurgitate. But you shouldn’t take it out of the mouth and then swallow it. If you do, you should be dealt with according to the rule.”
SuttaCentral

Another from the Pilindavacchasutta:

Now at that time Venerable Pilindavaccha addressed the mendicants as “lowlifes”. Then several mendicants went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him, “Sir, Venerable Pilindavaccha addresses the mendicants as ‘lowlifes’.”

Then, having applied his mind to Pilindavaccha’s past lives, the Buddha said to the mendicants, “Mendicants, don’t complain about the mendicant Vaccha. He doesn’t addresses the mendicants as ‘lowlifes’ out of hate. For five hundred lives without interruption he was reborn in a brahmin family. For a long time, he has addressed people as ‘lowlife’. That’s why he addresses the mendicants as ‘lowlifes’.”
https://suttacentral.net/ud3.6/en/sujato

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The main point is not what the Buddha left unsaid as a handful of leaves are said only, but are these contradicting what the Buddha said. And they do not contradict.

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They don’t contradict and don’t align. What the Buddha perceived to be important was taught.

The research by Stevenson may be interesting but, in my opinion, is not needed to support s the Buddha’s teaching. The Buddha’s teaching stands on it’s own merit. Possibly, again in my opinion, using Stevenson’s research as “evidence” of Buddhist rebirth could be counterproductive.

There’s plenty of people out there who are super influenced by the scientific model. It’s not like the normal school system teaches rebirth as a fact. But most if not all schools would teach science. And part of the issue is there’s 2 things in science education which gets mixed up and doesn’t get clarified often.

  1. The scientific method, relying on evidences, not just logic or revelation, as akin to kalama sutta. Thus having being taught to look for experiments, evidences, it is very helpful to have independent evidences for rebirth and not have to rely on just faith in the suttas, or teachers (revelation), or just logical thinking about the dhamma.

  2. The conflation of physicalism philosophy into scientific worldview, wherein due to the physicalism philosophy, they cannot imagine a mechanism for the mind or anything to survive the brain dying. The mind is just a software of the hardware of the brain. Thus rebirth as described in the suttas are impossible to believe for one who holds onto physicalism philosophy. The rebirth evidences challenges people to look at data first to inform their philosophy instead of filtering data via their own philosophical stance. Of course, we are guilty of viewing things via the Buddhist lens, but still, at the very least the data do not contradict the Buddhist philosophy, but do contradict the physicalism philosophy. Thus, it is actually not a philosophy anymore, but a testable scientific hypothesis. Physicalism hypothesis has been falsified.

Why do you think that there’s so many secular Buddhists out there? They do not get the exposure to these views, education on how to properly think with regards to rebirth evidences. They end up rejecting the rebirth evidences or do not wish to look at it seriously at all.

Who else is going to promote these facts of nature? We cannot expect those who do not believe in rebirth to propagate it.

PS. Actually, given what’s in the syllabus of schools, it’s all the more important and imperative for all Buddhist teachers to actually include some rebirth cases in our dhamma talks, sharings etc, whenever appropriate, just to give a vaccination to guard the listeners against converting to secular Buddhism, or falling into that wrong view trap. It’s a natural starting point for them to start to see that rebirth is a fact of life, not just some leftover thing in Buddhist philosophy which is unimportant in the project of ending suffering.

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The thing is Ian Stevenson’s research is not evidence of rebirth. I’m not sure if Stevenson himself even saw his research as evidence of rebirth. To present something as evidence when it is not is not a great idea, in my opinion.

What we do know is that according to Sutta the Buddha did teach rebirth. I think that Buddhist’s who wish to teach rebirth would be better served teaching rebirth as taught by the Buddha.

Does the ability of small children to remember their previous life contradict with the Buddha’s teaching on the ability to remember past lives?

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There is no way rebirth can be proved empirically by the current scientific process we have. And I do agree that Stevenson didn’t see that as absolute proof of rebirth, but he tried to show that it had to be a past life experience that seemed to shape the person he investigated.

But then do we 100% discount rebirth taking place because of the lack of evidence that meets our status quo?

Can modern science show us where the ‘mind’ is located? Sure some say it’s the brain creating this illusion, but proof ?:nerd_face:. Our scientific method is overwhelmingly based on materialistic assumptions, how can it extract evidence from phenomena it’s can’t ‘measure’?

The burden of proof lies with those who deny rebirth takes place to show how these cases can be explained by circumstances other than the stream of consciousness finding a new physical manifestation based on causes and conditions.

For me, the Buddha’s teaching of the 4NT, N8FP, falls apart if we take rebirth and cyclic samsaric existence out of the picture. Best call it something else, not What the Buddha taught.

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No, it doesn’t.

Have you even read them? They are not just remembering past lives, they find actual real world details corresponding to the remembered details, and many of the details are super hard to uncover and find. Many cases are even pre-internet.

Seriously just read more of these cases, it’s so undeniable that basically those who would deny it has some agenda behind them. I would posit that if everyone on earth had read the cases and it’s propagated down the masses, it would be accepted as fact within 100 years. Given some time for social turbulence due to some people in power cannot let of of old views.

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