Leigh Brasington and "Jhana-Lite" (Why there is no such thing as "jhāna-lite")

Thanks for your response here, and I agree with all you say, but just one small clarification:

Leigh used “quote marks” to indicate that he meant the word jhana is only a concept, not that the meditative state was only a concept.

I hinted at this above, but let me be more explicit.

Buddhism, especially Buddhism in non-traditional contexts, attracts an extremely high percentage of people with psychological disorders, or tendencies to such disorders. Among them is a large number of people with narcissistic or delusional tendencies. There is a strong positive filter that maximizes the number of such people in the room.

These are people who suffer and who believe the establishment has let them down. They are lonely, isolated, and looking for a community, for help and support. And what they get in spiritual circles is, all too often, people who indulge and encourage their delusions and narcissism. It happens all the time. This is, of course, not limited to jhana-lite communities, but it certainly includes them.

In the next generation, those very same people graduate and become the teachers. This is how spiritual bypassing becomes normalized.

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The following is from the FAQ (Appendix 1) in my book Right Concentration, pp 179-180:

As mentioned in the chapter on the Fourth Jhana, at the time of the Buddha, after the monks and nuns finished their alms rounds, they would eat their midday meal, which would be around 10:00 or 11:00 in the morning. Then they would “go for the day’s abiding” and meditate until evening. Since they had not grown up with chairs, they had the capacity to sit cross-legged for an extended period of time. So if they were sitting for multiple hours at a time over a 6 or 7 hour period, they were far more likely to experience a very deep level of concentration. By the time they entered the fourth jhana, their concentration was deep enough that the simile with its white cloth indeed captured the pure, bright mind they were experiencing.

So it turns out we do have enough information in the suttas to set minimum and maximum bounds on how much concentration the composers of the suttas were experiencing in their jhana practice. The maximum strength would be limited by the phrase “One drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses one’s body…” Clearly in the first four jhanas, there cannot be such a strong a level of concentration that you lose touch with your body. Thus in the suttas, the jhanas cannot be full absorption since in full absorption there is no body awareness at all.

The minimum strength of concentration for the composers of the suttas would be that concentration has to be strong enough concentration to generate the pure bright mind with its bright white visual field in the fourth jhana.

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Hello samseva,

The description found in the suttas of J8 is only the name (yes, I know it’s actually IA4, but I figure people will know what “J8” refers to). That’s it. Everything beyond the name is an interpretation. Obviously our interpretations differ. But going only by what’s in the suttas re J8, pretty much anything would be possible as an interpretation - because there is only the name.

However if we assume the qualities of the earlier jhanas persist as the number go up, unless they are explicitly mentioned as having ended, then we can assume some additional qualities for J8 beyond just the name. We know, as was mentioned earlier,

so if you are going to say what is found to have ended with J2 continues to be ended in J3-J8, I think you also have to acknowledge that instability can be a problem is any jhana. That’s all I’m saying. If someone doesn’t have enough concentration, then their jhana will wobble. Surely you have experienced this yourself!

99% of the students I work with are lay, not monastic. They have busy lives and are on retreat only 10 or 20 or 30 days a year for the most part (a few manage longer). But leading a householder life for most people means they simply are not going to get concentrated enough that their jhana never wobbles.

i don’t think you are saying that if someone cannot produce a non-wobbling jhana, they should forget about concentration. The perfect is the enemy of the good enough. What my students experience mostly is not a completely stable experience, but what they experience does match all the factors mentioned in the suttas - for all of J1-J8. And they do find noticeably enhanced insight practice when continuing to practice after the states they learn from me have ended. And insight is where it’s at - everything else is only means to gain insight. See e.g. SN 12.23.

Jhana is a physiological and mental, meditative state. “Jhana” is a concept. All we can do is discuss our concepts of that physiological and mental, meditative state. You say your concept is based on the suttas. I say my concept is based on the suttas. That’s all that’s happening. I explained my reasoning in great detail in my book Right Concentration. (BTW I wanted to name it "Practical Jhanas - the publisher had other ideas, as they always do). It seems you don’t like my reasoning because you want to disallow any wobbling.

Not your version of it, yes. Valid? Well, we disagree on this.

How many of my students have you interviewed to ascertain this “not going any further?” I actually find that students who are proficient in what I teach are quite keen to continue their practice. Statements like “re-energized my practice”, “re-inspired me”, etc abound in their conversations with me.

No, I don’t teach beginners. People have to have attended 2 one week or longer residential retreats before they can attend one of my retreats. They all have more than an introduction by that time.

Again, I ask how many of my students have you interviewed to ascertain this data?

Again have you encountered any of my students who are so defiled? I really want to know - because that’s not my experience.

Also some of my students do go on to study other approaches to jhana.

So are you saying that when Ven. Moggallana was experiencing instability inJ2 he was not in J2. If so, that certainly contradicts what the sutta says - see SN 21.1

Because it matches the pericope given repeatedly for the jhanas in the suttas. It doesn’t match your demand that there be no wobbling - I’ll grant you that. Also because it produces a mind that is “purified, bright, flawless, rid of corruptions, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable” (DN2) that serves to enhance the students’ insight practice.

Because it matches the pericope given in the suttas for the jhanas and it produces the result that the jhanas are intended to produce - a mind that is “purified, bright, flawless, rid of corruptions, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable.”

I go into detail in my book towards the end of the FAQ in discussing the minimum and maximum amount of concentration needed for jhanas as found in the suttas. I will post another reply containing that excerpt. Your mileage may vary :slight_smile:

It seems, samseva, that you have a different approach to teaching jhanas than I do. At least I’m assuming you teach jhanas, even tho I have not seen any of your retreats advertised. I am genuinely interested to hear more about how you teach jhanas. What is the mix of monastic vs lay? What do you use to generate sufficient concentration to enter J1? Do all or many or a few of your students arrive at J1? If all thinking is gone at J2, how do they move on to J3? And particularly, if all thinking is gone in J7, how do they move on to J8? If you are willing to share your approach to teaching your version of the jhanas, then maybe I will be able to learn from you and enable my students to also reach non-wobbling jhanas.

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Thank you, Leigh, for the insightful criteria :pray:

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Dear Leigh,

I think there is a huge misunderstanding on your part, which might be the root of the rest of misunderstandings. The body in the suttas in certain contexts oftentimes does not mean physical body.

SN51.12

And so, with an open and unenveloped heart, they develop a mind that’s full of radiance. When the four bases of psychic power have been developed and cultivated in this way they’re very fruitful and beneficial.

When the four bases of psychic power have been developed and cultivated in this way, a mendicant wields the many kinds of psychic power: multiplying themselves and becoming one again … controlling the body as far as the Brahmā realm. …

If you can “control the body” as far as the Brahma realm, it means clearly transcending physicality. Brahma realm is part of rupa-loka which is outside of kama-loka. Even higher devas don’t have acces to Brahma-loka, and Brahmas are totally beyond sensual and physical realm. And “physical body” is fully kama-loka thing.

So… the body in suttas mean body of experience. You can experience spiritual feelings in your “body” even in rupa and arupa loka… It is more like body of the mind.

MN10

When they feel a material pleasant feeling, they know: ‘I feel a material pleasant feeling.’

When they feel a spiritual pleasant feeling, they know: ‘I feel a spiritual pleasant feeling.’

When they feel a material painful feeling, they know: ‘I feel a material painful feeling.’

When they feel a spiritual painful feeling, they know: ‘I feel a spiritual painful feeling.’

When they feel a material neutral feeling, they know: ‘I feel a material neutral feeling.’

When they feel a spiritual neutral feeling, they know: ‘I feel a spiritual neutral feeling.’

This “body of mind” can feel both material feeligns coming from material body, and spiritual feelings coming from spiritual body (the mind). The “body” in jhanas clearly relates to mind. Abhidhamma also agrees with it, that it is the mind that feels both material and spiritual feelings in the end.

The white cloth simile is simile for whiteness of “energy” fulfilling whole boundless mind.

There are numbers of suttas suggesting that white color is highest, like:

AN8.65

“Mendicants, there are these eight dimensions of mastery. What eight?

Perceiving form internally, someone sees visions externally, limited, both pretty and ugly. Mastering them, they perceive: ‘I know and see.’ This is the first dimension of mastery.

Perceiving form internally, someone sees visions externally, limitless, both pretty and ugly. Mastering them, they perceive: ‘I know and see.’ This is the second dimension of mastery.

Not perceiving form internally, someone sees visions externally, limited, both pretty and ugly. Mastering them, they perceive: ‘I know and see.’ This is the third dimension of mastery.

Not perceiving form internally, someone sees visions externally, limitless, both pretty and ugly. Mastering them, they perceive: ‘I know and see.’ This is the fourth dimension of mastery.

Not perceiving form internally, someone sees visions externally, blue, with blue color, blue hue, and blue tint. Mastering them, they perceive: ‘I know and see.’ This is the fifth dimension of mastery.

Not perceiving form internally, someone sees visions externally, yellow, with yellow color, yellow hue, and yellow tint. Mastering them, they perceive: ‘I know and see.’ This is the sixth dimension of mastery.

Not perceiving form internally, someone sees visions externally, red, with red color, red hue, and red tint. Mastering them, they perceive: ‘I know and see.’ This is the seventh dimension of mastery.

Not perceiving form internally, someone sees visions externally, white, with white color, white hue, and white tint. Mastering them, they perceive: ‘I know and see.’ This is the eighth dimension of mastery.

These are the eight dimensions of mastery.”

It is closery related to

AN4.41

“Mendicants, there are these four ways of developing immersion further. What four? There is a way of developing immersion further that leads to blissful meditation in the present life. There is a way of developing immersion further that leads to gaining knowledge and vision. There is a way of developing immersion further that leads to mindfulness and awareness. There is a way of developing immersion further that leads to the ending of defilements.

And what is the way of developing immersion further that leads to blissful meditation in the present life? It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption … second absorption … third absorption … fourth absorption. This is the way of developing immersion further that leads to blissful meditation in the present life.

And what is the way of developing immersion further that leads to gaining knowledge and vision? It’s when a mendicant focuses on the perception of light, concentrating on the perception of day, regardless of whether it’s night or day. And so, with an open and unenveloped heart, they develop a mind that’s full of radiance. This is the way of developing immersion further that leads to gaining knowledge and vision.

And what is the way of developing immersion further that leads to mindfulness and awareness? It’s when a mendicant knows feelings as they arise, as they remain, and as they go away. They know perceptions as they arise, as they remain, and as they go away. They know thoughts as they arise, as they remain, and as they go away. This is the way of developing immersion further that leads to mindfulness and awareness.

And what is the way of developing immersion further that leads to the ending of defilements? It’s when a mendicant meditates observing rise and fall in the five grasping aggregates. ‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the ending of form. Such is feeling, such is the origin of feeling, such is the ending of feeling. Such is perception, such is the origin of perception, such is the ending of perception. Such are choices, such is the origin of choices, such is the ending of choices. Such is consciousness, such is the origin of consciousness, such is the ending of consciousness.’ This is the way of developing immersion further that leads to the ending of defilements.

The first one related probably to jhanas in general… which allows you to get second type which is very deep and pure realisation of limitless radiance of the mind, which relates to realisation of powerful dibbacakkhu (also in other traditions known as third eye).

DN33

Tīṇi cakkhūni - maṁsacakkhu, dibbacakkhu, paññācakkhu.

Three eyes:—the eye of the flesh, the eye of clairvoyance, and the eye of wisdom.

So in general the second type of samadhi (white immesurable light) gives you divine eye which allows you psychic powers and see how things really are (pannacakkhu).

This is also reflected in transcendentral dependent origination:

SN12.23

Faith is a vital condition for joy. Joy is a vital condition for rapture. Rapture is a vital condition for tranquility. Tranquility is a vital condition for bliss. Bliss is a vital condition for immersion. Immersion is a vital condition for truly knowing and seeing. (samādhūpanisaṁ yathābhūtañāṇadassanaṁ) Truly knowing and seeing is a vital condition for disillusionment. Disillusionment is a vital condition for dispassion. Dispassion is a vital condition for freedom. Freedom is a vital condition for the knowledge of ending.

Exactly as in AN4.41, after samadhi comes yathabuthananadassanan - knowledge and vision which are psychic powers, one of which can and should be pannacakkhu which gives rise to liberation.

So… actually this level of samadhi (second in AN4.41 - pure boundless radiant mind - most likely 4th jhana and perhaps higher) is completely transcending sensuality, physical realm etc… at this point, when you emerge out if it to level of upacara samadhi, whole universe, including all khandhas are seen on the background of this vast, radiant purified awareness. At this point I suppose you don’t really feel “human”, but human you “are” on day to day basis is just one more little experience in flow of your exalted radiant consciousness. Just as Ajahn Brahm says, Ajahn Brahm cannot get into jhana. For jhana to happen, Ajahn Brahm must disappear.

I totally agree with Bhante Sujato and Samseva. You’re using word “jhanas” to things that are not exactly jhanas. I think if you wish to use buddhist vocabulary and in a way “promote” yourself on it and to speak to people interested in buddhism, you should do as much as possible to be faithful to buddhist tradition and not just your inner experience.

AN4.180

“Mendicants, what are the four great references?

Take a mendicant who says: ‘Reverend, I have heard and learned this in the presence of the Buddha: this is the teaching, this is the training, this is the Teacher’s instruction.’ You should neither approve nor dismiss that mendicant’s statement. Instead, you should carefully memorize those words and phrases, then check if they’re included in the discourses and found in the texts on monastic training. If they’re not included in the discourses and found in the texts on monastic training, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Clearly this is not the word of the Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha. It has been incorrectly memorized by that mendicant.’ And so you should reject it.
(…)

Take another mendicant who says: ‘In such-and-such monastery there is a single senior mendicant who is very learned and knowledgeable in the scriptures, who has memorized the teachings, the texts on monastic discipline, and the outlines. I’ve heard and learned this in the presence of that senior mendicant: this is the teaching, this is the training, this is the Teacher’s instruction.’ You should neither approve nor dismiss that mendicant’s statement. Instead, you should carefully memorize those words and phrases, then check if they’re included in the discourses and found in the texts on monastic discipline. If they’re not included in the discourses or found in the texts on monastic discipline, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Clearly this is not the word of the Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha. It has been incorrectly memorized by that senior mendicant.’ And so you should reject it.

I think you should reconsider your views for the benefit of all and to promote harmony between sangha and lay teachers community. I highly recommend reading book of Bhante Sujato called Swift Pair of Messengers. It is a great guide on this difficult subjects that are jhanas and insight.

Btw. the sutta about masteries I think relates to fact that at first two levels you need to get into khanika or upacara samadhi or be post-appana samadhi to get psychic visions about reality and stuff in it. The later two are about fact you can do it at will without getting to any kind of samadhi (because your mind is so deep and purified already). And the next ones are about boundless immersions in certain colours, white being highest. Fourth jhana is also full of white light. And it is also related to “yathabuthananadasanam” - having knowledge and vision, which again relates to dibbacakkhu, eye of clairvoyance.

If what you really taught is fourth jhana and above, at least some of your students should posses these powers, like seeing many of past lives with vivid accuracy, reading minds of others etc. If not, this is yet another argument to reconsider your views and adapt to reality of buddhist tradition. Fourth jhana is really deep stuff. I don’t say there cannot occur any subtle “mental process of knowing” but it clearly it is way beyond physicality.

I don’t know where you got this assumption from. One does not need to be a teacher to understand suttas and have deep practice. And one does not need to be a teacher to protect purity of the dhamma. I would say that there are many practitioners who are not teachers, whose practice and understanding is much deeper and purer than many teachers. And it is duty of us all to try to preserve teachings of the Buddha as they are intended to be understood by our greatest teacher, whether we are teachers or not.

I also know that being a dhamma teacher, lay or ordained is a very difficult, demanding and possibily very meritorious task. And that even when teachers make some mistakes, they probably also do a lot of good by inspiring etc. As Ajahn Brahm says: Good, bad, who knows? But it doesn’t mean we should not improve ourselves and not try to stay as faithful to the suttas and vinaya, as Buddha taught us to do in AN4.180. And for this Sadhu Sadhu to this thread for giving us, and especially you Leigh, this opportunity.

I also remember nice story about sangha going for alms-round and young monk said to Venerable Sariputta that his robe was not worn properly this day. Venerable Sariputta went to the forest, changed his robe accordingly and thanked the young mendicant. I think this is beautiful story saying that no matter how much good we do (even Venerable Sariputta!), if there is some error in our conduct, we should just correct it. :slight_smile:Seeing danger in slightest fault…

I hope this message will bring more light to this difficult issue. I’ll just add that it is normal that we make mistakes and learn from them. I too had very deep misunderstandings about jhanas and still probably have some. But we can get closer and closer to proper understanding, and I hope this thread will bring us one step closer.

With Metta! :yellow_heart:

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12 posts were merged into an existing topic: Jhanas & the body

A post was split to a new topic: Jhanas & the body

I agree with you, however, I wasn’t referring to your post, and I wasn’t alluding to people with a psychological disorder (although, I am of the opinion that false attainments are particularly harmful for such people, in some cases prolonging their condition, or worsening it).

I was simply referring to psychologically healthy/normal people, who from following teachings such as “jhāna-lite,” also end up with delusional/false attainments.

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Leigh, saying something is “only a word/concept,” and that “since a word is only a concept, my interpretation is as valid as yours” is fallacious, and in two ways:

  1. A word is a word, but it isn’t only a word. Words, and in particular nouns, each represent something that actually exists—regardless of one’s interpretation of that word.

  2. It does not follow. To say something like “it’s only a concept, and like you, it’s my interpretation of it” doesn’t in any way support the interpretation as being valid.

Jhāna is a physiological and mental, meditative state. The word “jhāna” is simply what is used in written and verbal discussions of it. However, regardless of the word—whether it even exists or not—it represents something that actually exists, and our understanding of it must be in accordance with actual reality.

(And, in taking a similar relativist stance that “the word ‘jhāna’ is simply a concept” and that somehow anyone can have their own valid interpretation of it, this only further supports my claim that “jhāna-lite” is mostly just a “re-defining” of jhāna.)

I didn’t say “my concept is based on the Suttas.” What I said is: your claims and your understanding of jhāna directly contradict the Suttas.

It has nothing to do with “wobbling.”

Here is your claim regarding thinking in “eighth jhāna” (fourth arūpa-jhāna):

Leigh: “In eight [fourth arūpa-jhāna], you might have time for one simple sentence, that doesn’t contain the words, ‘me,’ ‘my,’ or ‘I’.”
Source (0:27)

There isn’t “my” version of jhāna, Leigh—exactly in the same way that there isn’t “your” version of jhāna.

If your students are taught a “jhāna” that wasn’t taught by the Buddha—which you’ve said yourself…

On long retreats, particularly during the two retreats I’ve done with Pa Auk Sayadaw, I was able to get deeply concentrated and then work with the same jhāna states I initially learned from Ayya Khema. The experiences I had during those retreats more closely matched the way they’re described in the suttas.

So then the question becomes, “If what I’m teaching is at a lesser level of concentration than what the Buddha was teaching, is that of any value, or should I just be teaching what he taught?” I’ve decided that, given that I’m working with lay students who come on retreat for ten or twenty days, it’s much more important to teach something that people can actually learn and use than to hold out for something that most people don’t have the time to properly develop.

Source: https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/article/jhanas-lucid-dreaming-and-letting-there-be-just-seeing-in-the-seeing/

…then, that they haven’t reached jhāna as was taught by the Buddha, is by definition, very likely.

The only case in which one of your students were to actually reach jhāna as taught by the Buddha, would be if they were to accidentally come upon it during their meditation—or if you were to teach them jhāna as taught by the Buddha, rather than “your” jhānas.

Your students/readers are quite vocal, in saying things like, that every single person’s understanding of jhāna—lay or monastic, from modern times, all the way to 2564 years in the past—is wrong. Everyone wrong… except you and Bhante Vimalaramsi (and by extension, them). They have many similarities with conspiracy theorists, in a way. They’re really not that difficult to spot.

(Advertising a bit, there, maybe?)

That’s quite an appeal to authority. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

Teaching doesn’t make someone right, Leigh. Sogyal Rinpoch, Chögyam Trungpa, and the Church of Scientology each had/have a much larger following than yours—so based on your logic, their teachings are even more right?

I’m not saying you’re like such people, however, what I am saying is that: like many of the things you say, the logic simply doesn’t hold up (i.e., illogical).

That you say the above clearly indicates how distorted/lacking your understanding of the Suttas and of jhāna is.

According to you, Leigh: “If all thinking is gone in the second jhāna, then how can one move on to the third jhāna”?

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At this point, Leigh, you’ve taken the discussion in almost every direction, other than that of the main objections raised in the OP itself.

In your presentation, mentioned in the OP, you say the following:

Leigh: “In eight [fourth arūpa-jhāna], you might have time for one simple sentence, that doesn’t contain the words, ‘me,’ ‘my,’ or ‘I’.”
Source (0:27)

As described throughout the Sutta Piṭaka—with nearly the exact same stock passage present in dozens of Suttas, and in every Nikāya—the mental factors of thought-conception (vitakka) and discursive thinking (vicāra) subside at the second jhāna:

“Here, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the first jhāna, which consists of rapture and pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by thought and examination. With the subsiding of thought and examination [avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ], he enters and dwells in the second jhāna, which has internal placidity and unification of mind and consists of rapture and pleasure born of concentration, without thought and examination.”

“Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharativitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā ajjhattaṃ sampasādanaṃ cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ samādhijaṃ pītisukhaṃ dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati”

—AN 5.14 (transl., Bhikkhu Bodhi)

It therefore appears, based on the Suttas, that your understanding of the “eighth jhāna” (fourth arūpa-jhāna)—for one, contradicts the Suttas—and, would instead be the first jhāna, or not jhāna at all.

That’s wobbling! You can wobble in any jhana, but if you wobble in J8, it’s quite likely there will be no trace of it left when you come out of the wobble - unless your wobble is really tiny.

You seem to have mistaken what I said for something - something I really don’t have a clue what you are going on about.

I’m sorry, I do not see any point in continuing this discussion with you. Once again, the Buddha was correct - about his teaching on views in Snp 4.

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Nope, it’s the physical body - at least in the jhana pericope. Here’s the results of my research - from the chapter Insight Knowledge in my book on the jhanas:

The Pali word translated as “body” in the above description of insight practice is “kaya” and is clearly referring to the physical body since it is said to be rupi and catummahabhutiko, meaning “having material form and composed of the four primary elements.” This is the same as the body (kaya) that one is to drench, steep, saturate and suffuse.

The insight step of the Gradual Training follows immediately after the 4 jhanas in multiple suttas (as you can see from the linked chart) and read in the associated suttas (e.g. DN 2). I seriously doubt the Buddha was switch contexts so dramatically to start using “kaya” differently. I do agree that at times “kaya” means “group” or “collection” - that’s obvious. But the nearest use of “kaya” to its use in the jhanas is definitely physical body.

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Aside from the concrete metaphors for the experience of bliss found in DN2 and MN 119, what was the basis for this definition? It isn’t the Abhidhamma because the gloss in the Vibhanga reads:

“Experiences pleasure by way of the body (of mental aggregates)” means: Therein what is pleasure? That which is mental ease, mental pleasure, easeful pleasant experience born of mental contact, easeful pleasant feeling born of mental contact.

This is called pleasure.

Therein what is the body (of mental aggregates)? The aggregate of perception, aggregate of mental concomitants, aggregate of consciousness. This is called the body (of mental aggregates). This pleasure he experiences by way of this body (of mental aggregates). Therefore this is called “experiences pleasure by way of the body (of mental aggregates)”.

This passage agrees with other early Abhidharma opinions found in Sarvâstivāda and Dharmaguptaka texts (and the Dharmaguptaka Abhidharma opinion is very similar to Theravada Abhidhamma, almost verbatim).

On top of this, in the Madhyama Agama of the Sarvâstivādins, the concrete metaphors that are set alongside the jhānas in Theravada suttas aren’t set directly with the dhyānas. Rather, they are associated with mindfulness of the body practice. But we find them associated with dhyāna in the Dharmaguptaka’s Dīrgha Agama parallel to DN 2 the same treatment of the dhyānas.

It may sound complicated, but the upshot is that those bliss metaphors appear meant to communicate the thoroughness of the experience, not the physicality, and associating them directly with jhāna wasn’t consistent across sectarian canons. But the Abhidharma opinions are consistent that kāya doesn’t mean the physical body. As you might know, there are many kāyas in Buddhist thought: A kāya of feelings, a kāya of perceptions, a kāya of cravings, etc.

[Edit: In the late Northern tradition, there was a controversy over how to read the kāya in the third dhyāna. Vasubandhu summarizes it in the Kośa, which can be read in English pp. 1231-1234 of the Poussin-Pruden translation. The logical issues that arise from claiming that mental happiness somehow permeates the physical body gets a bit difficult to maintain, but the Darstantikas doggedly tried nonetheless in Vasubandhu’s account of the debates.]

So, my question is, what other support have you found for taking kāya in the third jhāna as being specifically the physical body?

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You may be interested in the following:

SN46.54:12.1: And how is the heart’s release by love developed? What is its destination, apex, fruit, and end?
SN46.54:12.9: The apex of the heart’s release by love is the beautiful, I say, for a mendicant who has not penetrated to a higher freedom.
SN46.54:13.1: And how is the heart’s release by compassion developed? What is its destination, apex, fruit, and end?
SN46.54:13.7: The apex of the heart’s release by compassion is the dimension of infinite space, I say, for a mendicant who has not penetrated to a higher freedom.

SN45.54 gives the destination of the brahmaviharas, which ties them into the formless. And they are also progressive as defined here:

DN34:2.2.79: Nine progressive cessations.
DN34:2.2.80: For someone who has attained the first absorption, sensual perceptions have ceased.
DN34:2.2.81: For someone who has attained the second absorption, the placing of the mind and keeping it connected have ceased.
DN34:2.2.82: For someone who has attained the third absorption, rapture has ceased.
DN34:2.2.83: For someone who has attained the fourth absorption, breathing has ceased.
DN34:2.2.84: For someone who has attained the dimension of infinite space, the perception of form has ceased.
DN34:2.2.85: For someone who has attained the dimension of infinite consciousness, the perception of the dimension of infinite space has ceased.
DN34:2.2.86: For someone who has attained the dimension of nothingness, the perception of the dimension of infinite consciousness has ceased.
DN34:2.2.87: For someone who has attained the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, the perception of the dimension of nothingness has ceased.
DN34:2.2.88: For someone who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling, perception and feeling have ceased.

The progression is useful in that it provides insight into the transitions between states. For example, one may ask here, “What are the drawbacks of infinite space that would lead to a transition to infinite consciousness?” Examining transitions provides very useful insights.

In other words, worrying less about “Where’s Waldo?” in the nine progressive cessations, one can more usefully understand the transitions as seeds to insight. Additionally, a useful way to approach the progressions is to treat them as a spiral rather than a line. In this spiral contemplation the transitions happen cyclically at ever more subtle depths of insight. By adopting a spiral (vs. linear) progress perspective we can escape the trap of asserting or assuming attainments. By adopting a spiral perspective to practice, one revisits transitions endlessly as well as progressively. And that very spiral practice also fulfills:

DN33:1.9.34: To never be content with skillful qualities, and to never stop trying.

The interesting thing about Leigh Brasington is not really the veracity of “Jhana” vs “Jhana-lite”. That just leads to endless one-upmanship. The interesting thing about Leigh Brasington is to understand his perspective on the transitions between states. With a spiral perspective to practice we can all learn from each other.

:thinking: Amusingly, a screw is a spiral. Screws are a modern invention, so perhaps not available 2500 years ago. Still, one does wonder about “righty tighty, lefty loosey” and what the Buddha might have said. Perhaps we’ll need to wait for the next Buddha to hear about…“Righty View…”

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Yes, that might become a problem for some. On the other hand, to put labels like lite, hard or right, and so on, to jhanas could also result in people regard states like Jhana’s to be impossible due to their life situations. And thereby resulting in that they give up Buddha’s teachings, or maybe send them in search of other instructions, sects, and guru’s that mess their minds up to a more significant extent than a relatively common/innocent and hopefully momentary misconception of their attainments would.

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So the scenario that you outlined justifies making up a false version of '“jhāna”?

And why do such people care so much about the label “attained jhāna” in the first place? They require such a label to stay with the practice?

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Who knows what’s false, especially when communication happens indirectly? Of course, nothing justifies leading people astray, especially when it comes to spiritual seeking. And I would say it’s as severe about closing off anybody when one hasn’t the opportunity to see eye to eye. The word “attain” is problematic if it’s all about letting go into layers of deep stillness.

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Anjali Bhante and metta filled greetings All,

I have read most of this discussion that at some point was split. I got through most of the discussion with Leigh Brasington. For some reason I feel compelled to join the discussion or at least comment.

It can get confusing with so many different ways the jhanas are described by respected teachers. Keeping sila and overcoming the hindrances are essential as well as faith in the Triple Gem are taught in the suttas for preparing the mind for Jhana. So I respect teachers who include this in their instructions.

I appreciate Bhante’s comments regarding how to approach to elements in the suttas. It seems best not to get too analytical. I also like to err on the side of kindness instead of who can prove their point.

Maybe after sitting with a cup of tea we could sit on our cushions and see if we can put the teachings
Into practice.

I find the EBT very pragmatic. The Dhamma is meant to be experienced individually by the wise. A good balance of study and practice seems the best approach.

I appreciate everyone’s efforts to penetrate the teachings.

May we all attain the wholesome states not yet attained and realize the Deathless.

Suvijjana Bhikkhuni

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That’s quite a combination of terms/statements—which has little or no basis in the Suttas.

Here, I’ve highlighted the parts in which you contradict both the Suttas and yourself:

Leigh: "In eight [fourth arūpa-jhāna], you might have time for one simple sentence, that doesn’t contain the words, ‘me,’ ‘my,’ or ‘I’.”

Source: https://youtu.be/cE35YGLxMig?t=27

In your above statement, you undeniably say: "In eight [eighth jhāna], you might have time for one simple sentence.”

Again, as described throughout the Sutta Piṭaka, the factors of thought-conception (vitakka) and discursive thinking (vicāra) subside at the second jhāna—let alone the fourth arūpa-jhāna of nevasaññā-n’asaññāyatana (of which—at least based on the Suttas—would appear that you falsely claim to reach).

You’ve put an end to the conversation with, yet again, another ad hominem—even using the Buddha’s teaching to do so.

:wave:

One thing is for sure, anger, arguments, harsh speech, holding on to views, and righteousness etc is guaranteed to hinder deep meditative states…

The more you let go - the deeper you go

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