Take this positively, this suffering / frustration could be enough to help enabling the right sort of faith that kick-starts the dependent origination of awakening as per SN12.23
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Thank you Gabriel. I’m about to jump in my car to head to class at the Spiritualist Union, but I’ll read that link when I get back home tonight. 
Haven’t finished reading the thread yet, a cardinal sin, but.
I’m importing a comment of mine from the “Jhana is satipatthana, and satipatthana is jhana” thread (no, it’s not).
… initial and “discursive” thought is a characteristic of the first jhana, in which “speech has ceased”. I would say it’s a particular kind of speech that has ceased in the first jhana.
“…I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought.”
(AN III Book of Sixes text iii, 414, VI, VI, 63; © Pali Text Society Vol III p 294; suttacentral AN Nibbedhika Sutta 6.63)"
“And what… is the ceasing of action? That ceasing of action by body, speech, and mind, by which one contacts freedom,–that is called ‘the ceasing of action’.”
(SN IV text iv,129, XXXV, III, 5, section 145; © Pali Text Society Vol IV p 85; suttacentral 35.146. Kamma)"
The “cessation of speech” is the cessation of “determinate thought” in speech, the cessation by which one contacts freedom. I would contend that’s not necessarily the cessation of all speech, just as the cessation of “determinate thought” in action of the body, and in particular in inhalation and exhalation, is not the total cessation of action of the body (and not the total cessation of inhalation and exhalation).
The cessation of habit and volition in inhalation and exhalation, I would say that’s the fourth jhana and the concluding part of mahasatipatthana sutta.
What is the cessation of habit and volition in inhalation and exhalation? it’s an experience of the activity of the body solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. Does this accord with Gautama’s description?
“Again, a (person), putting away ease… enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, (one) suffuses (one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind. … just as a (person) might sit with (their) head swathed in a clean cloth; even so (one) sits suffusing (their) body with purity…”
(AN III Book of Fives, The Fivefold, The Five-Limbed, © Pali Text Society Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 119 (92-93), © Pali Text Society p 132-134)
Recalling that “one-pointedness of mind” is fundamental to any right concentration (the free location of consciousness that gives rise to the automatic activity of inhalation and exhalation is one-pointed):
“And what… is the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations, with the accompaniments? It is right view, right purpose, right speech, right action, right mode of livelihood, right endeavor, right mindfulness. Whatever one-pointedness of mind is accompanied by these seven components , this… is called the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations and the accompaniments.”
(MN III 117, 71, © Pali Text Society vol III p 114; “noble” substituted for Ariyan)
Nevertheless:
“… a good (person] reflects thus: “Lack of desire even for the attainment of the first meditation has been spoken of by [me]; for whatever (one) imagines it to be, it is otherwise” [Similarly for the second, third, and fourth initial meditative states, and for the attainments of the first four further meditative states].”
(MN III 113 (42-45), © Pali Text Society Vol III p 92-94)
There’s a lot of debate on “one-pointedness of mind”. For clarity, here’s my take:
“There can come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.”
And Gautama’s:
“Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness. (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein.”
(SN V text V 198, XLVIII, IV, I, x; © Pali Text Society vol V p 174; “noble” substituted for Ariyan)
I like Woodward’s translation of the traits of the first and second jhana for the Pali Text Society: “zest and ease”. Difficult to describe how the suffusion of the body with “zest and ease” relates to “one-pointedness of mind”, yet I think “so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this lone-born zest and ease” does just that (AN III Book of Fives, The Fivefold, The Five-Limbed, © Pali Text Society Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 119 (92-93), © Pali Text Society p 132-134). “Not one particle”–one-pointedness, even as the body is pervaded.
I find ease when I find a way to experience gravity in the placement of attention as the source of activity in my posture, and particular ligaments as the source of the reciprocity in that activity. That goes away, when the activity of the body is solely by virtue of the location of consciousness.
This thread has an echo on Reddit/theravada called ‘Ayya Khema and Leigh Braseington’. Someone who knew him said he was 100% Secular
My guess is the reason folks bridle at Liegh is the question “how you can practice Jhanas outside of Buddhism… or in other words,… why would you?”
@LeoCGOR with all due respect, have you reviewed Leigh Brasington’s work at all? I shared his website link above. It’s not like he’s hiding out somewhere and so we’re left with other people’s speculation about him. For instance, how can we listen to this short 20-minute talk and not be inspired by the Buddha?
If that’s being a secular Buddhist, then I really don’t understand the lay of the land the way I thought I did.
I was responding to a thread on r/ buddhism.
I had one very cordial coresspondence with him…
But I heard some troubling things about him so I asked around on Dhamma Wheel & reddit.
This thread was my turning point.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/1elalrm/ayya_khema_leigh_brasington/
I am open to hear more. It is hard for me to sus things out. I am the only “old school buddhist” in my town.
From time to time people note how Buddhist practice communities have come to overemphasize sati practice at the expense of samādhi practice. (May as well throw in Vipassana as well.) This is with good reason. And to be clear, we’re largely talking about communities led by lay people where there are few, if any, monastics or vihāras for consultation.
So what to do? I appreciate the lay teacher dedication to focusing squarely on samādhi practice for the lay students who would otherwise not have direct access to these teachings. Honestly, a lay practitioner like me isn’t parting hairs when it comes to “Jhana-Lite” vs the jhānas (as described in an EBT-based orthodoxy).
None of us are renunciates and we know that. So why spend 80% of a 10-day retreat on the precepts and sīla when just about everybody who’s attending already has established the noble 8fold path mindset prior to signing up for the retreat in the first place. I have to think most people aren’t expecting to move through the jhānas as if we were renunciates.
If they are, perhaps they can go on reddit to expound on it. OK… seems like they already are 
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Something I posted on my own site, that I hope may be food for thought for those interested in “the five limbs (of concentration)” here:
'In his “Genjo Koan”, Dogen wrote:
“When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.”
(“Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Robert Aitken and Kazuaki)
Given a presence of mind that can “hold consciousness by itself”, activity in the body begins to coordinate by virtue of the sense of place associated with consciousness. A relationship between the free location of consciousness and activity in the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, “practice occurs”. Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested in the activity of the body.
Dogen continued:
“When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point…”
(ibid)
“When you find your way at this moment”, activity takes place solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. A relationship between the freedom of consciousness and the automatic activity of the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, practice occurs. Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested as the activity of the body.’
As I described it above, “when you find your place where you are” is a description of the basic of the three jhanas that include a feeling of ease (“ease” being Woodward’s translation of “sukha”). “When you find your way at this moment” is a description of the basic of the fourth jhana, the jhana that revolves around “purity by the pureness of mind” (in Woodward’s translation).
Concentration depends on “making self-surrender the object of thought”, and laying hold of “one-pointedness” (finding “the place where you are”): As I believe I mentioned previously:
“There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.”
Not jhanna-lite.
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Sorry in advance please don’t be offended. I was reading these posts last night and this ad came to me this afternoon while I was meditating.
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Reddit is a pit of snakes… the level of ill will on Buddhist forums there shocks me as well. I had to delete the damned app once and for all as too many unwholesome mind states were arising from my use.
The level of discourse here is about ten million times higher.
Reddit is still social media at the end of the day . Subject to bots, Astro turf, etc… just not worth it.
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I’m thinking of several old folksy sayings that go something like this. If you achieve something, the bigger you are, the more people you have biting at your heals.
I met Brasington years ago, I used to sit with one of his students. I have a hard time taking criticism of him seriously, especially from Reddit.
Brasington, Sujato, and now Ajahn Brahm is being accused of “dark Jhanas”.
I muted those threads, I think I will mute this one too.
Train more, life is short.
I’ve looked at reddit a few times, avoided it like the plague. Public forums will go off the rails without strict moderation to maintain wholesome goals. I love the mods here! 
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Can you put ‘accused’ in to further context for me please?
Are people saying these 3 teachers are ‘doing it wrong’ if being in a dark void/ dark space is included?
I don’t do reddit … but the couple of times a link has sent me there it just looked very ‘not spiritual’ to me.
The mods do such a great job of keeping this space polite - even amidst disagreements. It a breath of fresh air as far as online discussion spaces go.
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The one pursuing the ox’s tracks might need Clayton’s tonic, but the ox might need a double before letting that person on board.
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I only follow Hillside Hermitage reddit and I only saw top tier contribution and civil conversations honestly.
Only because it’s a niche of a niche of a niche of a niche… The vast majority of people simply do not know it exists. Give it time. The Reddit trolls will arrive sooner or later.
Yeah that may have been a little uncharitable. There are good conversations/info on reddit . Really more of a personal issue I suppose. Either way, when I deleted the app, a more subtle but the same feeling of relaxation happened as when I deleted my twitter and Facebook a while back.
Those things just seem to put us in an ego driven contentious mindset (again could just be me ). Maybe that’s the ultimate test …can you go on pedestrian social media and have no unwholesome mindstates arise ?
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You got a point here !
I’ve never done Twitter or Facebook, but gave up paying attention to news a few months ago and that has been quite liberating!
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