SuttaCentral
I am looking for a sutta I remember where the Buddha explains that if life where entierly and completely suffering, i.e that only pain existed then there would be no beings, as there would be no pleasure to crave for and cling to and contra-wise if life where wholly pleasurable there would be no need for the holy life.
Does anyone know it? I feel like its in MN, but could be wrong.
Metta.
Thanks @Snowbird ! this is extremely helpful!!
SN22.26 has:
Then it occurred to me:
Tassa mayhaṁ, bhikkhave, etadahosi:
‘The pleasure and happiness that arise from form: this is its gratification.
‘yaṁ kho rūpaṁ paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṁ somanassaṁ, ayaṁ rūpassa assādo.
That form is impermanent, suffering, and perishable: this is its drawback.
Yaṁ rūpaṁ aniccaṁ dukkhaṁ vipariṇāmadhammaṁ, ayaṁ rūpassa ādīnavo.
Removing and giving up desire and greed for form: this is its escape.
Yo rūpasmiṁ chandarāgavinayo chandarāgappahānaṁ, idaṁ rūpassa nissaraṇaṁ.
However I am pretty sure that the sutta I remember is not an “aggregates” sutta, that is it doesn’t run through the 5 permutations, rather it just presents the arguments about a cosmos that was wholly painful not having any possibility of beings, I think its somewhere in MN but I haven’t been able to find it yet, even with your suggestions as an aide.
I will therefore not yet mark your response as a solution in the hopes of finding the one I’m thinking of, but if i cant, then I will mark your suggestion as the closest thing to a solution.
Metta.
I’m curious what terms you looked up in any indexes to try and find what you were looking for, if any. It is a tricky one for sure. I thought the phrase “there would be no living of the holy life” was in the sutta. That is how I found it. Without knowing that I’m not sure how I would have.
lol, I have tried so many searches: “entirely unsatisfactory” “no beings would appear here” “no beings would appear there” “completely unsatisfactory” “entirely suffering”… I’ve been googling and searching different things all morning.
Right, that is why I wanted you to check out the pattern. There are many suttas that take the same analysis and apply it to various different factors. “Gratification, danger, escape” is another one to check out.
Yeah, they all basically make the point I’m after but the one I’m thinking of had a more “cosmological” flavour, I think it was addressed to a named individual, discussed the “cosmos” or “world” as being neither “wholly suffering” nor “wholly pleasurable” and was in MN somewhere.
Of course there is so much material even in the 3 Nikayas I am somewhat defamiliarise with (DN MN and SN) that I could easily be conflating bits of things together and there simply is no such sutta… It’s a really clear memory tho…
Have you skimmed through the blurbs about each sutta in the MN? Something might jog your memory.
yeah trying that as we speak, nothing so far…
did find another one in SN tho;
At Sāvatthī.
Sāvatthiyaṁ viharati.“Mendicants, if the earth element were exclusively painful—soaked and steeped in pain and not steeped in pleasure—sentient beings wouldn’t love it.
“Pathavīdhātu ce hidaṁ, bhikkhave, ekantadukkhā abhavissa dukkhānupatitā dukkhāvakkantā anavakkantā sukhena, nayidaṁ sattā pathavīdhātuyā sārajjeyyuṁ.But because the earth element is pleasurable—soaked and steeped in pleasure and not steeped in pain—sentient beings do love it.
Yasmā ca kho, bhikkhave, pathavīdhātu sukhā sukhānupatitā sukhāvakkantā anavakkantā dukkhena, tasmā sattā pathavīdhātuyā sārajjanti.
SN14.34
Here are some notes I made long ago for G/D/E pattern:
In MN011 Cūḷasīhanāda Sutta they are included with origin and disappearance when referring to the view of being and the view of non-being.
AN03.101 Before my enlightenment
AN03.102 Dutiyāssāda Sutta “If there were no gratificaton…”
SN14.31-33
MN109 Mahapuṇṇama Sutta
SN22.026 Assāda Suttaṃ
SN22.027 Dutiyāssāda Suttaṃ Whatever GDE there is in the 5A the Buddha has seen with wisdom just how far it extends.
SN22.028 Tatiyāssāda Sutta “Because there is…”
SN22.109-110
SN22.057 Sattaṭṭhāna Sutta also uses the Four Noble Truths Pattern
SN35.071 Chaphassāyatana 1…has not lived the holy life, he is far away from this…
SN35.13-18
SN22.060 Mahāli Sutta for a similar but not exact same treatment
SN35.103 Uddaka Sutta becoming a knowledge master, universal conqueror
SN38.005 Assāsa Sutta attaining consolation
SN36.023 Bhikkhu Sutta along with 4NT pattern
SN17.025 Samaṇabrāhmaṇa Sutta gain, honour and praise
SN48.004 Paṭhamārahanta Sutta in regard to the five faculties
MN149 Mahāsaḷāyatanika Sutta The problems of contemplating gratification only
AN04.010 Yoga Sutta in regards to “bonds”. seems to be the same as asavas
Maybe Mahālisutta SN 22.60 is the one you are looking for?
“Mahāli, if form were exclusively painful—soaked and steeped in pain and not steeped in pleasure—sentient beings wouldn’t lust after it. But because form is pleasurable—soaked and steeped in pleasure and not steeped in pain—sentient beings do lust after it. Since they lust after it, they’re caught up in it, and so they become corrupted. This is a cause and condition for the corruption of sentient beings. This is how sentient beings are corrupted with cause and reason.
If feeling …
perception …
choices …
consciousness were exclusively painful—soaked and steeped in pain and not steeped in pleasure—sentient beings wouldn’t lust after it. But because consciousness is pleasurable—soaked and steeped in pleasure and not steeped in pain—sentient beings do lust after it. Since they lust after it, they’re caught up in it, and so they become corrupted. This is a cause and condition for the corruption of sentient beings. This is how sentient beings are corrupted with cause and reason.”
“But sir, what is the cause and condition for the purification of sentient beings? How are sentient beings purified with cause and reason?”
“Mahāli, if form were exclusively pleasurable—soaked and steeped in pleasure and not steeped in pain—sentient beings wouldn’t grow disillusioned with it. But because form is painful—soaked and steeped in pain and not steeped in pleasure—sentient beings do grow disillusioned with it. Being disillusioned, desire fades away. When desire fades away they are purified. This is a cause and condition for the purification of sentient beings. This is how sentient beings are purified with cause and reason.
If feeling …
perception …
choices …
consciousness were exclusively pleasurable—soaked and steeped in pleasure and not steeped in pain—sentient beings wouldn’t grow disillusioned with it. But because consciousness is painful—soaked and steeped in pain and not steeped in pleasure—sentient beings do grow disillusioned with it. Being disillusioned, desire fades away. When desire fades away they are purified. This is a cause and condition for the purification of sentient beings. This is how sentient beings are purified with cause and reason.”
Another one is Dutiyaassādasutta AN 3.105:
“Mendicants, if there were no gratification in the world, sentient beings wouldn’t love it. But because there is gratification in the world, sentient beings do love it.
If the world had no drawback, sentient beings wouldn’t grow disillusioned with it. But since the world has a drawback, sentient beings do grow disillusioned with it.
If there were no escape from the world, sentient beings wouldn’t escape from it. But since there is an escape from the world, sentient beings do escape from it.
As long as sentient beings don’t truly understand the world’s gratification, drawback, and escape for what they are, they haven’t escaped from this world—with its gods, Māras, and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans—and they don’t live detached, liberated, with a mind free of limits.
But when sentient beings truly understand the world’s gratification, drawback, and escape for what they are, they’ve escaped from this world—with its gods, Māras, and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans—and they live detached, liberated, with a mind free of limits.”