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Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN22) and non-monastics


#21

This is similar to my own understanding and maybe i can call it experience too.
I do notice i “catch” my self in moment of non mindfulness and it kind of wake me to more insight in what is stil lacking to be understood (hope this was not out of forum rules to explain)


#22

Well just explain your experience as it is reflected in the EBTs! :grin:


#23

Hello @cultivator. :slight_smile:

Such a large sutta as DN22 has much to offer. My own project is DN33, which also has much to offer. Our chosen suttas have too much to absorb in a day or a week or a month or even, some might say, lifetimes!

Therefore I listen to DN33 repeatedly as I walk meditation. Repeated listening has proven very fruitful and has led me to explore many many suttas to answer my questions. Indeed, this community of SuttaCentral has been vital to my study and has helped me many times.

If you are interested in listening to DN22 repeatedly, please look at DN22 on voice.suttacentral.net, where you can download the entire sutta in the voices you choose.


#24

Hello Karl_lew :slight_smile:

Thank you for the audio file to the sutta DN22 :slight_smile: It is actually a lot better to listen to the true dhamma in audio then to read it. The sutta DN22 speak to me in a way that i not noticed with other suttas (yet). The cultivation of the dhamma can be a surprising path to take sometimes :slight_smile: I have been more then 20 years on the path and realised that there was no need to walk anywhere to find the truth hehe :slight_smile: it was right in front of me all the time :slight_smile: Even i have realised new wisdom during this 20 year there has been moment the last year that excelled even my dreams when it come to awakening and to me DN22 may have been the eye opener :slight_smile:

I will take a deeper look at DN33 too and hopefully it will excel my wisdom to new areas too :slight_smile:


#25

for those interested, here is the link to DN22, the sutta mentioned in the OP:

:anjal:


#26

It seems the Satipatthana Sutta (in MN 10 and DN 22) is an expanded version on Satipatthana. The early suttas on Satipatthana are found in the SN 47 Satipatthana Samyutta and SN 54 Anapana Samyutta; e.g. SN 47.2 and SN 54.1. So, for those who really want to practice Satipatthana or Mindfulness according to Early Buddhism, one may read and study the above-mentioned suttas (cf. pp. 215-8, 225-7 in the Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism by Choong Mun-keat). :pray:


#27

The Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta likely isn’t an essential text for lay followers. Traditionally, lay practice was centered on devotional practices and cultivating virtue (AN 8.54), but breath meditation was easier for Western audiences to accept, hence its popularity. The choice is up to you how deep you wish to go into the Dhamma. Just be aware that there are several paths and stages of enlightenment to choose from.


#28

My path is within Theravada buddhism :slight_smile: Cultivation to me is about letting go of everything in the end, Every attachments that was attained before i started this journey in to theravada must be released and Jhana is a part of this. Meditation and dhamma study is mostly what i do every day


#29

Mindfulness is suitable for newcomers:

“The Blessed One said, “Monks, the new monks—those who have not long gone forth, who are newcomers in this Dhamma & Vinaya—should be encouraged, exhorted, & established by you in the four establishings of mindfulness.”—SN 47.4

Mindfulness is the direct path; this is stated at the beginning of the Satiapatthana sutta, and re-emphasized at the conclusion:

“Monks, this is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the surmounting of sorrow and lamentation, for the disappearance of dukkha and discontent, for acquiring the true method, for the realization of Nibbãna, namely, the four satipatthãnas.”—Satipatthana sutta, Analayo.


#30

When addressing lay followers specifically, the Buddha often prescribed the first three recollections for practice over Satipaṭṭhāna (SN 55.7). He did this likely because he understood that it would be difficult to reconcile a household, romantic partner, and children with stilling one’s feelings and contemplating charnel grounds. With that said, if you aren’t fettered by such worldly obligations, Satipaṭṭhāna could be for you.


#31

Satipatthãna sutta is one of the many suttas i study yes :slight_smile:
But i find it to be good for lay people to study the suttas meant for monastic life too, because there is so much wisdom that is needed to understand for the lay person too :slight_smile:


#32

:pray:

I fully agree.

I just wanted to present a counterpoint. For many, the monastic practices can have wonderful results. For others like myself, it can lead to frustration, depression, and inactivity. Depending on one’s temperament and aspirations, some teachings are better suited for practice than others.


#33

In my understanding if we study and realise the 4 noble truths, use the 8 folded path every day, meditation and focus on become morally good then we have come far :slight_smile:

Being in between monastic and lay person make it possible to understand both ways of living :slight_smile:


#34

It’s good to contemplate the 4NTs repetitively. This is a map which can guide us. I knew that cravings causes suffering but didn’t act on them for many years, sometimes out of fear of how hard that would be and also due to fear about losing my sense pleasures. However when I did practice as per the Four Noble truths my suffering lessened, and it was 90% easier than I thought it was going to be.


#35

I would argue that things we find frustrating are exactly the things we should turn towards - contemplating why we feel frustrated and what attachment we have that is causing the frustration.

I have personally had great success by focusing on satipatthana practice, even if I can’t sit with it for more than an hour a day, I can still feel the effects in daily life interacting with my coworkers and spouse and children, and I can call to mind the satipatthanas when I find myself struggling.

I find this whole “monastic vs. layperson” discussion to be kinda silly. There’s no reason why any and all practices can’t be done by anyone regardless of status. A monastic is simply someone who has chosen to and successfully devoted their practical everyday life to practicing the Dhamma - that doesn’t mean a layperson can’t have that same devotion. And in some ways, I think laypeople have more opportunity to really USE the practice in a tangible way, bumping up against traffic and bosses and kids every day, where the monastery can be somewhat of a hermetically sealed and less challenging environment, once one gets past adhering to the Vinaya and ascetic lifestyle. It reminds me of a story I heard from Ajahn Sumedho when he was recently in town; Ajahn Chah let him go off to a secluded hermitage to practice by himself. After one week he felt sure he had achieved the goal, so wonderful was his outlook. Then he had to go into Chiang Mai to renew his visa, and dealing with the “real world” quickly showed him he still had much work to do :slight_smile:


#36

It depends on whether or not those things are necessary. Trying to put on a shoe that doesn’t fit can also be frustrating. There are plenty of teachings sized specifically for the feet of lay followers (AN 11.11). If a lay follower doesn’t feel comfortable with Satipaṭṭhāna, which wasn’t typically addressed to them, they shouldn’t force themselves to spend time with it.

It’s not a case of one verses the other. Monastics and lay followers have different obligations and roles in society, hence the difference between the teachings that were given between the two. The Buddha himself made this distinction.

As for the householder protocol,
I will tell you how-acting
one becomes a good disciple,
since the entire monk-practice
can’t be managed by those wealthy in property.
Snp 2.14