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Maintaining the Five Precepts and Right View but Still Going to Hell?


#45

No one is doing that in this thread.


#46

Amusingly it does seem to work that way and BTW, congratulations on 9999 prior lives of good deeds!

We can’t escape our kamma, but we can stop making it. Then it burns off on its own. We just watch. :fire: :eyes:

This is probably why it is good practice to engage the effort to preserve:

It’s when a mendicant preserves a meditation subject that’s a fine foundation of immersion: the perception of a skeleton, a worm-infested corpse, a livid corpse, a split open corpse, or a bloated corpse. --DN33


#47

I don’t feel I deserved the sarcasm when presenting an example. And since when is a life 1 year long?

Action ripens or gets diluted, like salt in water. Or it becomes ahosi kamma.

That’s more like it let’s keep to the task at hand

:+1:


#48

It seems that we can escape our kamma by gaining at least stream entry. For example, Angulimala, the murderer in the Angulimala Sutta, attains nibbana after hearing the Buddha’s teachings did not have enough time to burn off his kamma before enlightenment.

I seem to recall quite a few other suttas that support the view that kamma can be escaped by making sufficient progress in the 8 fold path (the stream of stream entry). However, I can’t recall the exact suttas. Can anyone help here?


#49

Actually, Angulimala did suffer in his life after becoming a disciple:

Then Venerable Aṅgulimāla robed up in the morning and, taking his bowl and robe, entered Sāvatthī for alms.
Now at that time someone threw a stone that hit Aṅgulimāla, someone else threw a stick, and someone else threw gravel. Then Aṅgulimāla—with cracked head, bleeding, his bowl broken, and his outer robe torn—went to the Buddha.
The Buddha saw him coming off in the distance,and said to him:
“Endure it, brahmin! Endure it, brahmin!
You’re experiencing in this life the result of deeds that might have caused you to be tormented in hell for many years, many hundreds or thousands of years.”

Regarding the burning off of kamma, we have AN7.55 for non-returners with extra effort:

Suppose you struck an iron pot that had been heated all day. Any spark that flew off and floated away would fall on a large heap of grass or twigs.
There it would ignite a fire and produce smoke. But the fire would consume the grass or twigs and become extinguished for lack of fuel.


#51

Apologies, I had no intent to offend. What I was trying to express is that worrying about 10000 years ago might be impractical,

Actually the burning off is referenced in AN7.55. I did not make this up:

Suppose you struck an iron pot that had been heated all day. Any spark that flew off and floated away would fall on a large heap of grass or twigs.
There it would ignite a fire and produce smoke. But the fire would consume the grass or twigs and become extinguished for lack of fuel.


#52

Not really. In AN 3.100 the Buddhas compares a small amount of bad Kamma to a bit of salt which when put into a glass of water makes it undrinkable. But if the same amount of salt is put into a river, nothing happens to the water of the river because salt is too little to make any impact on the mighty river which is a synonym for good Kamma.

I think this addresses Brooks’s understanding that one who follows the path develops more good kamma than what may be in store.
With Metta


#53

I think it is also a synonym for a mind that has become large and immeasureable by expanding its metta to encompass countless sentient beings, and by recognising its own lack of an inner core of identity, vs a mind that is narrow and self centered, and therefore quite small. Once the mind has developed to the former, even quite horrific acts commited in the past will have relatively insignificant effects in the present.

Which reminds me of what a nun in a Tibetan Buddhist lineage very candidly told me about the Bodhisattva vows of her tradition:

«It isn’t actually possible to postpone your enlightenment until all other sentient beings have gone before you. However, the mind that wishes to do so will become enlightened very quickly».


#54

Cool cool, I think you thought I was disagreeing with you in the first place, however:

That is about the dependant origination factor ‘taking up’ or ‘clinging’ or ‘fuel’. Here:

They’ve completely given up the underlying tendencies of conceit, attachment to life, and ignorance. They’ve realized the undefiled freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom in this very life, and live having realized it with their own insight due to the ending of defilements. This is called extinguishment by not grasping.

I could tell by glancing at the quote but the surgeon for the world proved the proof for us both.


#55

I already said that. If I killed my father 10000 years ago I could be smashed to pieces by brigands in the next few minutes. So I’m disagreeing with you there. That’s just some crazy example. I have no idea how kamma works. But the Buddha did, he told us in the sutta this thread is all about. Here’s AN 6.19


#56

Isn’t this just extra incentive to practice for liberation from Samsara and the effects of Kamma. :slightly_smiling_face:

So it could be said that realising this, one is understanding right view, and making progress.
This life is short - be diligent. Practice like your hair is on fire! I can think of many lines from suttas, but I can’t recall specific sutta references.

:anjal: :dharmawheel:


#57

Sadhu :pray:


#58

except for some suttas


#59

Thank you! I had not read that before. Wishing…

…to live as long as it takes to breathe out after breathing in, or to breathe in after breathing out …

:pray:


#60

Would you like me to edit my post and remove AN 6.19?


#61

you have style Karl :sunglasses: at the same time remember your precepts. And what suttabot took you through.


#62

The suttabot is voice.suttacentral.net. Please let us know how we can improve it.

Thank you.
:pray:


#63

I’m afraid I don’t understand the reference. What I mean is that when it comes to religion we should always look out for three topics and be particularly cautious with how they are utilized: money, power, heaven&hell.

When texts say “Do this or you will go to hell” I think we should first sniff if there is a potential second agenda besides ‘truth’. Religions have done it regularly over the millenia - why should Buddhism be different?

Sutta composers, compilers, transmitters, and teachers were not all holy and sacred. Some had very profane religio-political motivations - helping the Sangha grow, diminishing other traditions, compete for lay support and patronage, etc. How do you do it? You create texts with the Buddha saying “Others are stupid, we are smart”, “We can make you go to heaven very easily, the others don’t know how”, “We know exactly what makes beings go to hell, the others don’t. If you want to be safe, stick with us”.

Again, founding figures are one thing, how later generations instrumentalize them is another. There is much sublime in the suttas, but also the profane.


#64


Vattha rolls DN27


#65

The OP was concerned with worries regarding MN 136 and hell states. Many suttas make it seem very easy to go to hell. I’m just expressing my doubts regarding these suttas. You don’t have to agree with my doubts obviously.

See for examples AN 1.290 (similar logic AN 3.117, AN 3.118, AN 3.146-149, AN 4.85, AN 4.121, AN 6.54, SN 3.21), AN 1.312, AN 2.1, AN 2.16-18, AN 2.26, AN 2.210-214, AN 2.220-224, AN 3.10, AN 3.23, AN 4.233, AN 3.36, AN 3.39, AN 3.113, AN 4.3 (AN 8.89), AN 4.20 (AN 5.272), AN 4.64, AN 4.82-84, AN 4.111. etc. etc. etc. There is a lot of hell-going in the suttas.

In some of these suttas one can go to hell for ‘idle chatter’, jeesh.