Perhaps
I can appreciate this on an intellectual level. But in terms of the gradual training, I need to use mental happiness as a vehicle to take me to this rather deep realisation. I remember Ajahn Brahm once using the analogy of a ladder. To climb to the top, one needs to grasp on to, attach, to the rungs. As one rises higher, one lets go of the lower rungs.
According to the Buddha in the EBTs, Vedana is only discarded when one enters one of the Jhanas. I believe, after such an experience, having been removed from Vedana, one can then truly appreciate and understand it by noticing what if feels like not to have had it around for a while.
Yes, of course, but the Path to that realisation involves feeling happiness. To quote Ajahn Brahm quoting the Buddha, sorry I can’t remember the reference, though I have come across it, “this is a Path without groaning”.
I’m sure we’d both agree that bringing this perspective into the matter gives fresh meaning to the idea of a gradual training. I am not in control of my next birth. I can hope for conditions conducive to Practice and I can create good habits of Practice in this life and Practice letting go as much as possible so that I’ve a jolly good chance of actually letting go when I die. That’s it. That’s the level of my control. In recognising this, on a purely intellectual level I’m living some aspect of Right View, because Anatta means I’m not in control. SN 22.59
I think the word ‘gladness’ is a bit problematic for me in this context, I mean in the way you’ve used it here. I’ve heard gladness being described as a signpost telling one that one is on one’s way to a deep meditation experience.
I believe, the viraga (I’ve heard Ajahn Brahm refer to viraga as “fading away”) happens on the way to samadhi and conditions one’s mind in that vein afterwards too. I imagine, the nibbida, disenchantment and dispassion would begin to take hold after such experiences because one begins to realise the suffering of the body and of the world it lives in; one would see this because of the direct contrast offered by deep meditation experiences. I am normally so inclined to consider my experiences; I mean, I eat chocolate and can’t help pondering on the experience for a little while afterwards! So I imagine that reflecting on less worldly experiences with more depth, would just be part of the habit of the mind to focus on it’s most recent experiences; and I imagine such post deep meditation reflections would teach one alot about things like viraga.
Much of the suffering in my life as a Practising Buddhist is because of the current (and past!) immaturity of my Practice and wanting to be some where that I have not yet earned. It’s nice to know that we’re not alone in this though; I think there are a few/several verses in the Therigatha and Theragatha that point to such types of suffering!
Learning patience and learning how to be happy in the present moment seems to be quite important. I believe, we must be able to be present if this Path is to work. MN 131, MN 132, MN 133, MN 134. And I think the only way to make our minds present is if we can make the present pleasant! I mean, I’m so restless that if the present isn’t enticing enough, I’ll just shoot off on some train of thought or other! I think we have to learn to use vedana as a secret weapon which will eventually turn on itself! And the only way we can be pleasantly present is if we are basing ourselves in virtue and kindness; and then I think it gets easier if we get some good meditation or understand how to meditate and get a bit of wisdom going. I think that’s what AN 11.1 and AN 10.2 are all about.
I completely agree that it is samsaric; but again…the Path doesn’t just go from the beginning straight to the end, it has a middle too. I can’t remember the reference, but it’s a famous quote by the Buddha that “This Path is beautiful in the beginning, beautiful in the middle and beautiful in the end”. Also, I believe there is an EBT quote(s) where the Buddha tells the Sangha that they must not be afraid of the wholesome happinesses of the mind. A close friend of mine once told me about a very deep meditation experience. She said, she nearly let go very deeply, but right at the crucial moment, when she was feeling such powerful pleasure, she pulled back out of fear of the power of the experience and because she realised she’d be letting go of so much control; to this day she remembers this and regrets that she couldn’t let go fully. However, I know this experience fuelled and motivated her Practice for years to come.
As a Bodhisatta, so the story goes, the Buddha practised a path full of pain for 6 years, then realising that this was the wrong path discarded it. The Middle Way allows for happiness based on virtue and samadhi; indeed I feel that such happiness is the fuel, a prerequisite for, and the very vehicle for the realisation of
So I’ve heard. But it comes at the end of the 10 Fold Path. Not in the middle. For most of us, not right now. There are different types of happiness in Buddhism. This one comes right at the end. But there are others to be had at the beginning and the middle and we have to go through the beginning and the middle to get to the end.
@anon61506839 thanks so much for this discussion and for disagreeing so skillfully and beautifully. It’s made me reflect on some beautiful aspects of the Dhamma and caused me to look up some rather lovely suttas. I also just want to say that your commitment and love for your Practice are so very obvious and so very inspiring. Thank you so much for sharing. 