Meddling monastics?

If a junior monk decided not to bow to a senior, there would likely be an awkward moment and then they’d move on. Just like if someone reached out to shake your hand and you didn’t take it. There’s really nothing more to it than that.

Social change doesn’t come about by judging women and telling them what to do. It comes by trusting women to decide for themselves.

3 Likes

Would you mind answer to my post?
I add few more questions.
Thanks

Just some minor details; the Vinaya says very little about seniority. There is an expectation that a senior should able to speak first in a formal meeting of the Sangha, and that they should not be denied a place to stay. I haven’t looked into it in detail, but there’s really not much more to it than that. In maybe 99% of the Vinaya seniority has no relevance, and it’s never more than a matter of etiquette. There is no authority or explicit power conferred by seniority.

That describes about 95% of monks today. Is it a good thing? I don’t think so. But it doesn’t invalidate your ordination.

4 Likes

Sorry Bhante.
Can you give answer to the link in my question post.
Can you cut the answer here and paste to my original question.
I keep this discussion for my future reference.
Kind regards

I’m sorry, I’m not sure what you’re saying. The quote you gave had three questions, and I have answered all three.

1 Like

Please give your answer to the following link.
Sorry for the trouble.
:anjal:

Again, I have answered these questions. I don’t know what you want from me.

4 Likes

Social change is a complex phenomena. I understand your point but there may be more involved. This looks like another instance of the discussion we have been having about the ways in which meaningful change takes place - individually and collectively. We can place an emphasis on ‘change comes from within’ and of course this is important. However, there is another important way in which positive change takes place within society. Its involves collective goal setting and trying to realise meaningful change through collective-effort. The millennium goals are one of many templates for collective and coordinated efforts - involving large groups - aimed at the realisation of specific outcomes. Its not an either/or situation! There will always be individuals and groups who remain frozen in time - so be it - but we cannot wait for everyone to catch-up and move in the direction we need to go without delay.

Individual Bhiikhunis are welcome to observe atavistic practices if they feel the need. Intransigent Bhikkhus are not required to give up their sexist ways if they find this offensive or inappropriate. However, the rest of us need to get on with the task at hand, as there is no time to drag our feet - socially, economically, culturally and, environmentally. In reality, the opportunities we needed to take advantage of have gone begging - but we cannot give up - IMO.

What collective? All I see is a bunch of lay people judging nuns. If bhikkhunis decide to get together and decide how they will practice regarding the garudhammas, I would absolutely support them.

2 Likes

Maybe you are reading things into - seeing a uniformity - that is not really there. I am not judging nuns I am encouraging them as best I can. I am giving voice to matters that also extend beyond he bhikkhuni-community - to our interdependent needs as part of ever larger circles of life and living.

Bhikkhus and Bhikkhunis can do anything they like - we all can do as we wish - but there are repercussions that impact on all of us as a consequence of our individual and collective choices. If any one feels they have been bullied by me please let me know - and I will shut-up without hesitation?

2 Likes

Look, I’m sorry if I’ve been too harsh. I have a long history with these issues! You haven’t been bullying or anything, in fact you’ve been very nice.

I just wish we stopped talking about these things. Really, it doesn’t accomplish anything. Celebrate the achievements of the bhikkhunis, support them to build for the future, look to the inspiring stories in the Therigatha, which make up a much larger portion of early texts on bhikkhunis than the “rules”!

We need to shift the dialogue. Imagine you’re a newbie to Buddhism, and you are interested in nuns. So you Google it, what do you see? What is the general dialogue around nuns in Buddhism? A lot of it—like really a lot—consists of narrow, rigid arguing about keeping rules. There’s nothing inspiring or interesting about it. It’s silly, and we need to move on.

16 Likes

That has been what I have been doing all along - as far as I can tell - but I could be wrong. If any offence has been taken I apologise - this was not my intention. :heart_eyes:

7 Likes

Well said Bhante!

6 Likes

Me too.

It is disturbing to consider that any nuns’ community may be choosing to keep rules which they do not believe are in accordance with Dhamma mainly because they do not wish to upset the faith of the laity! Especially as (I believe) most of us (including myself) are woefully uninformed about this and other similar matters.

I would just love to see views and facts like those expressed in Bhikkhuni Vinaya Studies become common knowledge.

Well said.

Diversity among the communities is a strength. It seems to me, that whenever in history someone went about trying to make everyone be the same or hold everyone to some higher ideal…things went rather badly wrong.

I don’t want to change the nuns and I agree it’s their business to do so. But I would love for the context they are supported by - the lay communities - to become more informed. Because my sneaky suspicion is that this would lead to more kindness and acceptance and support - regardless of what the nuns choose. Indeed, it may even result in a greater respect for and understanding about why they must be supported in making their own choices.

But then again…it may lead to people being unhelpfully passionate and forceful in their efforts to change what they see as terrible injustices towards the nuns… Sigh… I don’t know now…

Reckon I might bow out of this one…at least for now…

5 Likes

I’m getting the impression that people assume that gender inequality would be removed if we abolished the garudhammas. But this is actually only the tip of the iceberg. The discrimination is much deeper and much more systemic in the vinaya.

To give a few examples:

  • In order to become bhikkhunis in the first place in line with the vinaya, the ordination has to be confirmed by the monks. So the male sangha will always have control over who can join the female sangha.

  • Many garudhammas are also rules in the pacittiya class of offenses that is included in the patimokkha and recited every two weeks. Even if you accept that the garudhammas as a separate group are late, you can’t change the pacittiyas in the patimokkha. Besides these “garudhamma-pacittiyas”, there are also other pacittiya rules that subjugate nuns to monks.

  • The parajikas (the heaviest class of offenses that lead to immediate expulsion from the sangha) are much stricter for nuns. Since the Buddha only allowed minor rules to be abolished, this is not something that can be changed.

  • Similar to the ordination procedure, nuns require the monks’ participation in several other sangha acts in order to carry them out in line with the vinaya. Thus the communities cannot be independent and depend on the goodwill of the monks. This gives the monks a lot of control over the nuns.

It is a big misunderstanding to assume that only the garudhammas are the problem.

11 Likes

Hi Vimalanyani
I am very sorry for the experience of your plight as a nun.
I can relate to you as I have similar experience due to racial discrimination.
I handle it in two ways.
Firstly I asked what is my goal in a certain situation. So I concentrate on my goal. (In your case this should be Nibbana)
Secondly, I use that unpleasant experience to get out of the place as soon as possible. (in your case Nibbana not to quit as a nun)
Thirdly, fight to end total discrimination like Buddha.
Fourthly, Know discrimination is universal and will be eradicated only by Arahant.
Fifthly, Evaluate your situation. In this case, I think the rules by Buddha for the protection of women.

I recently spent a few months at a bhikkhuni monastery keeps that garudhammas and I was surprised by how okay I was with it. If you’ve known me even for a short period of time, you’ll know that I have the tendency to react to the garudhammas with something resembling unmitigated outrage. But in practice the garudhammas (at least in this monastery) did not seem like a big deal. In fact, it was kind of amusing to see that when greeting a monk with anjali the nun might bend her body different levels depending on said monk’s seniority and how much respect the nun had for him. And then the nuns just got on with things and ran the monastery like they wanted it to be run – and it was beautiful because they weren’t ignorant about the garudhammas – but they knew a certain level of stability was necessary in order for growth to occur. And if keeping said rules keeps the peace then for the time being that’s what they do. What I’ve learned a lot recently is that there are times to stir the pot and times to avoid creating a big gooey mess that might take a number of years to clean up; and further, a gooey mess that diminishes both trust and wellbeing.

Sadhu, Bhante! :pray: I think (as laypeople) focusing our efforts on promoting all bhikkhunis and bhikkhuni monasteries is what is needed right now. We could all sit here arguing about the patriarchy while bhikkhunis need - yah know - food! And money to pay their mortgages! And health insurance! And most importantly unwavering support! I know these things because I’m on the board of organization that fundraises for bhikkhunis’ needs, and as long as bhikkhunis are asking for basic things like travel and healthcare funds, then there are fundamental things that aren’t being done by the laypeople to support the bhikkhuni sangha. So can we focus on things like fundraising and giving bhikkhunis platforms for their voices to be heard? Please? :slight_smile:

13 Likes

This is the second time in 2 days that the systemic gender inequality existing between Monks and nuns has been compared to an experience of racism. To me this is just further evidence that the depth of the issue is hard for men to really understand. I think this delusion, that has been conditioned in lifetime after lifetime, is perhaps one of the hardest to see through and eradicate.

I copy my previous response to this here

with Metta
Mara

2 Likes

I agree.
Your wound always more painful than the wound of someone else.
Ask Mohomed Ali what is the most painful.
But be realistic.
Pain is the pain how small or large.

I agree, pain is pain. But the solution to one type of pain is not the same as the solution to another kind of pain - except for Nibbana… Still it would be wise to reduce our pain while in this existence if we can, rather than just endure and perpetuate it.