Meditating whilst still practicing one's Faith

The Watercooler
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I’ve been having some beautiful meditation experiences these days when the mind feels clearer, lighter and more inclined toward calm and kindness. These experiences feel real, not just theoretical.

At the same time, I was raised in a Christian environment, and one thing I’ve come to understand more clearly as an adult is that Christianity places a central emphasis on salvation through Christ — being saved by Christ’s grace, sacrifice, and redemptive act.

In contrast, as far as I understand Buddhism, there is no need to “believe” that the Buddha saves you. Liberation is something one gradually realizes through one’s own practice, ethical refinement, and the progressive reduction of greed, hatred, and delusion. The Buddha points the way; he does not carry you to the destination nor do you have to believe in him.

I once watched a talk by a well-known Buddhist monk who said that he had been invited to give a talk in an Anglican church. Someone asked him whether it was appropriate for him, as a Buddhist monk, to bow before Jesus. His reply was that he bows not to a dogma, but to the qualities he deeply respects in Jesus: compassion, self-sacrifice, moral courage etc. and that bowing to those qualities does not contradict being a Buddhist.

So here is what I have been thinking and pondering about.

Would it be reasonable, or completely confused, to “hedge my bets”, so to speak, by remaining culturally and socially Christian (keeping my friends, my community, my shared language, my dancing evenings with Christian friends which would not be happening if I were in a Buddhist community), while sincerely practicing meditation and ethical cultivation (sila) as taught in Buddhism?

In other words:

If Christianity is true, then I am saved by Christ anyway.

If Buddhism is true, then my meditation practice and reduction of greed and hatred are genuinely moving me closer to liberation, independently of whether I go to church.

If one day deep meditation leads to a clearer insight aligned with Buddhism, I could then consciously commit more fully with a final switch.

Is this a pragmatic and compassionate way to live, or is it fundamentally misunderstanding both traditions?

Is faith something that must be exclusive and total from the beginning, or can sincere practice, ethical transformation, and lived experience legitimately come first, even if that means inhabiting an uncomfortable middle ground?

Losing my Christian friends and giving up so many activities I enjoy like dancing doesn’t seem to be very compassionate towards myself, but I don’t want to stop meditating either nor to do something unacceptably inconsistent.

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Around 20-30 years ago when I lived in London, I used to meditate with a group of Christian meditators because they were 5 minutes from where I lived and had neat little 30 minute meditation sessions every lunchtime. They were incredibly inviting and loved the fact that a Buddhist would regularly come to their meetings. They also ran special days where they would have guest speakers from other traditions and always valued my input. Their meditation instruction is based on the Desert Fathers and was instigated by the Catholic priest John Main. You can find out more here:

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You don’t have to believe this, because the Buddha won’t save you. That’s your job. This is the main contradiction between Buddhism and theistic religions.

I was going to mention Christian Meditation groups, but Stu has. I know/knew some beautiful catholic meditators. They learned metta through a Buddhist teacher and said it enhanced their connection to God. Which is lovely.

There are a fair number of my supporters who go to tango together. Buddhist lay people aren’t monastics.

I don’t see why you can’t keep your friends and be Buddhist, if you want to be. Certainly Buddhism doesn’t have problems with this unless your friends are into heavy drinking and other kinds of harm.You might even find some additional Buddhist friends.

Faith in Buddhism is different to Christian faith. Buddhist faith is similar to confidence and becomes purified at stream entry (pasanna-citta :wink:). It is a confidence that our ethical choices have results in this and future lives. And that we, rather than an external force, determine this. As with any kind of confidence it can grow through wisdom and reflection. The Buddhist path is the 8-fold path. Meditation is only a fraction of the path.

You can practice concepts learned from Buddhism and stay Chriistian. You don’t need anyone’s permission. We don’t save souls and it’s all creative commons :stuck_out_tongue: In the end the reason to practice is quite different, but the world needs good people.

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Not exactly. Without the Buddha one has no idea, what kind of job leads to liberation, since one dose not understanding what liberation is, nor what constitutes the bondage. Slave who doesn’t understand that he is a slave has no chances to liberate himself.

To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”33They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”34Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever.

Really?

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Matthew 7:13-14

Greed, hate and delusion are sins. Are you free from them?

Is your celibacy perfect?

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 5:28

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My point was that the Buddha has done his job already. He has pointed the way

What do you think, brahmin? Suppose a person was to come along who wanted to go to Rājagaha. He’d approach you and say: ‘Sir, I wish to go to Rājagaha. Please point out the road to Rājagaha.’ You’d say to them: ‘Here, worthy man, this road goes to Rājagaha. Go along it for an hour, and you’ll see a certain village. Go along an hour further, and you’ll see a certain town. Go along an hour further and you’ll see Rājagaha with its delightful parks, woods, meadows, and lotus ponds.’ Instructed like this by you, they might still take the wrong road, heading west. But a second person might come with the same question and receive the same instructions. Instructed by you, they might safely arrive at Rājagaha. What is the cause, brahmin, what is the reason why, though Rājagaha is present, the path leading to Rājagaha is present, and you are there to encourage them, one person takes the wrong path and heads west, while another arrives safely at Rājagaha?”

“What can I do about that, worthy Gotama? I am the one who shows the way.”

“In the same way, though extinguishment is present, the path leading to extinguishment is present, and I am present to encourage them, still some of my disciples, instructed and advised like this, achieve the ultimate goal, extinguishment, while some of them fail. What can I do about that, brahmin? The Realized One is the one who shows the way.”
ETA mn107

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Could you tell me which from which sutta this passage is?

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Yes, I know. But there are the two condition for arising of the right view and one who is able to teach how to go beyond attavada deserves the name of Saviour - at least he is the saviour in the eyes of these who were able to understand Him.

Brahmajala is the kind of “magic” net - it imprisons anyone who doesn’t see it. Once it is seen, it disappears. Saviour says: look, there is brahmajala!

In other words:

A man with avijjā, practising reflexion, may identify ‘self’ with both reflexive and immediate experience, or with reflexive experience alone, or with immediate experience alone. He does not conclude that neither is ‘self’, and the reason is clear: it is not possible to get outside avijjā by means of reflexion alone; for however much a man may ‘step back’ from himself to observe himself he cannot help taking avijjā with him. There is just as much avijjā in the self-observer as there is in the self-observed. (See CETANĀ [b].) And this is the very reason why avijjā is so stable in spite of its being sankhatā.[m] Simply by reflexion the puthujjana can never observe avijjā and at the same time recognize it as avijjā; for in reflexion avijjā is the Judge as well as the Accused, and the verdict is always ‘Not Guilty’. In order to put an end to avijjā, which is a matter of recognizing avijjā as avijjā, it is necessary to accept on trust from the Buddha a Teaching that contradicts the direct evidence of the puthujjana’s reflexion. This is why the Dhamma is patisotagāmī (Majjhima iii,6 <M.i,168>), or ‘going against the stream’. The Dhamma gives the puthujjana the outside view of avijjā, which is inherently unobtainable for him by unaided reflexion (in the ariyasāvaka this view has, as it were, ‘taken’ like a graft, and is perpetually available).

MN 107

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I’m sure Bhante @Snowbird can remember, there was a sutta where Buddha was talking to a group of outsider ascetics (about mortification?) and Buddha says “I’m not teaching Dharma for you to convert, keep your beliefs and practices as it suits you. I’m just talking about the way to end the suffering.”, something like that?

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oh sorry! That was Moggalana the Accountant MN107

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Thank you very much!

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An3.21 might be interesting for you, which defines some individuals who are freed by faith.

Reverend Saviṭṭha, these three individuals are found in the world.
What three?
The direct witness, the one attained to view, and the one freed by faith.
These are the three individuals found in the world.

Yet, there is concept of faith in Suttas: Mn47

“The Blessed One is a fully awakened Buddha! The teaching is well explained! The Saṅgha is practicing well!”
When someone’s faith is settled, rooted, and planted in the Realized One in this manner, with these words and phrases, it’s said to be grounded faith that’s based on evidence.
It is strong, and cannot be shifted by any ascetic or brahmin or god or Māra or divinity or by anyone in the world.

What do you think after reading MN22:

In this teaching thus well-explained, those who have a degree of faith and love for me are all bound for heaven.

Would you say such faith is settled, rooted in Christ, strong, and cannot be shifted by anyone?
If you wish to practice faith then believe with whole heart - there is no place for “hedging bets” - which is actually doubt in disguise.

For example, in Bible it is written that we have received two main commandments:

  1. to love God with all of your heart, soul (psychee in Greek), strength, mind
  2. to love others as oneself.

If you read the suttas with the aim of purifying oneself, cultivating mindfulness about presence of good and bad qualities, cultivating love as commanded, then it would be hard for someone to fairly reprimand you stating that you have faith in Christ but do not do as commanded.

MN40 states a proper way of practice:

Having developed love, compassion, rejoicing, and equanimity in this way they gain inner peace.
Because of that inner peace they are practicing the way proper for an ascetic, I say.

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Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response, it gives me a lot to reflect upon. I’m enjoying my meditation today☺️, so I’ll just write something brief now and respond perhaps in more detail later.

I was very interested by your mention of tango, a dance with which I have a love hate relationship… I’ve often associated its nostalgia with the idea of paradise lost in Christianity. I have stopped dancing though because I realized many people in that environment had huge egos - myself not excluded :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes: - but perhaps it’s just accidental not essential and anyway it’s interesting to learn that Buddhists dance tango too.

More importantly I’m still trying to understand the idea that salvation in Buddhis. depends on us rather than on an external force. In particular, I’m not yet clear how this fits with the teaching of non-self. My impression was that Buddhism emphasizes how little control “we” have, and how deeply we are shaped by conditions, which is why the Buddha stressed the importance of good friends and a supportive environment. So the idea of salvation coming from “ourselves” feels less intuitive to me in a Buddhist context.

Perhaps one key difference, as I’m beginning to see it, is that Buddhism emphasizes the decisive role of conditions, community, and practice, while Christianity also includes divine intervention. I’m not sure if this makes sense particularly in relation to anattā.

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This is a Buddhist forum so I won’t go into the teachings of Christianity, but if you look up the teachings of protestantism, you will see that the condition to be saved is faith in Jesus as opposed to what you do yourself, and that we will always be sinners: the point is never to become morally perfect but to accept that you are not and that you need someone external, Jesus through his sacrifice to save you

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Also, this is going to drift from EBTs, but if you’re interested in the intersection of External Power and Buddhism, perhaps studying Pure Land Buddhism might be of interest for you - either as an inspiration for your studies, or as an example for if such concepts can actually work together or not. :slight_smile:

Personally, despite being against so many of my inclinations, and also arguably drifting so much from standard EBT/centric Buddhism, there’s something I find poetic about Amitabha devotion.

Again, since they depart heavily from EBTs (depending on your creative licensing, perhaps not so much!), you won’t find many people to discuss it with around here, or indeed finding people with favorable opinions of it; I’m just mentioning out loud instead of a DM so in future reference if someone was to come across this thread, they can at least hear about it. :slight_smile:

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Perhaps this would help.

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Hi simonew, thank you for your sincere questions and contemplation. I appreciate how some others have responded and concur.

I feel some folks find themselves pressing a bit to reconcile a Christian upbringing & genuine devotion with Buddhist thought. I belong in that camp! In my experience, this reconciliation can take years to happen more organically.

Without feeling so compelled to solve it, we make our best effort to follow the noble eightfold path. Along the way, clarity happens.

Not everyone “fits” in this category but I did.

Meditation becomes central to the letting go part :folded_hands:. Community is really important.

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I am not sure the Bible agrees with such view:

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matthew 5:48

Or this verse mentions one sinner and 99 righteous, also notice that when a sinner repents it is joyous occasion.

I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Luke 15:7

In suttas, generally after making a mistakes, the monks confesses it and commits to restrain in the future. Similarly Christians confess mistakes and are to do their best to not repeat them in future.
MN65

Indeed, Bhaddāli, you made a mistake. It was foolish, stupid, and unskillful of you that, …
But since you have recognized your mistake for what it is, and have dealt with it properly, I accept it.
For it is growth in the training of the Noble One to recognize a mistake for what it is, deal with it properly, and commit to restraint in the future.

Isn’t the idea that one views oneself as sinner constantly emotionally exhausting? If one has a sin weighting on their conscience, then let them confess it and commit to restraint in future! If one still feels the weight even after confessing, then do they actually believe they received forgiveness? Look how the Bible teaches for one to view this: even if the sins were like crimson before, after properly dealing with them they shall become like wool!

“Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool."
Isaiah 1:18

This kind of negative view is very similar to the common expression found in Suttas, where one does not deal with what weights on them properly:

When this was said Ariṭṭha sat silent dismayed shoulders drooping downcast depressed with nothing to say.

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I’m not convinced that acknowledging oneself as a sinner is emotionally exhausting; in some cases, I’ve seen the opposite. I’ve known of a Church member who fell in love outside his marriage and eventually took his own life because he could not accept his lack of control and his failure. Had he been able to accept, humbly and honestly, that he was not morally perfect, the burden might have been lighter. Steven Batchelor recounts a similar story of a Western monk in Sri Lanka who, unable to reconcile his ideal of purity with his actual experience (and his suffering from priapism), also ended his life.

In both Christian and Buddhist contexts, the danger seems less about admitting that we are sinners and more about clinging to an image of moral perfection. When failure becomes incompatible with one’s identity, confession and restraint turn into self-condemnation rather than liberation.

Accepting imperfection, whether framed as being a sinner or as recognizing unskillful states, can be a way of softening conceit, not reinforcing guilt, and may actually be psychologically and spiritually protective and liberating rather than exhausting. For me admitting that I can’t make it by myself but I need Jesus who loves me in spite of my faults has been very helpful for a long time

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You’re doing pretty good already! You’re in good company, asking questions to good people, don’t worry too much about labelling yourself as this or that. As you’ve said you’ve had pleasant meditation experiences and you also find inspiration in the Dhamma. That’s a great start. Keep practicing, reading the Suttas, meditating and being around good people. I understand that you find some goodness in Christianity, that’s alright, we should appreciate wholesome things wherever they are. As long as you keep practicing, you may really start to understand the speciality of the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, and naturally faith comes in and you may take refuge. The important thing is just to keep practicing. Remember the Kalama Sutta, doubt is natural. Just remember that you’d be doing an awful lot of disservice to your long lasting welfare and happiness if you outright reject the something the Buddha taught in favour of personal opinion or another religious teaching. An “I don’t know yet, I’m not sure, I’ll try to understand” attitude is perfect for where you’re at right now. In the end the Dhamma is not compatible with other religions 100% but that doesn’t mean there is no good out there as well, keep your Christian friends and rituals I don’t see how that would really hinder anything, as long as you’re careful about what you internalise and what you don’t.

Best of luck!

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You mention some good points. In the example you provide, it might have been he was not able to accept his failure or the possibility of him receiving forgiveness or both - as from a certain point of view - these two seem to be two sides of same coin: eg. One thing is forgiving others, but receiving forgiveness, requires confessing and acknowledging the failure as you have stated.

I’ll state in different words what I had intended to state: that is after confession and acknowledging of a failure and receiving forgiveness - one should no longer have it weight them down on their conscience - as that would no longer be beneficial - they have already properly dealt with mistake.

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