I thnk the Buddha used the word ābhavanaā which means cultivation or training the mind. I believe the word āmeditationā is no present in the Suttas; perhaps somebody knowing pali can clarify the point.
The following is simply a definition of right concentration, it does not signify that RC is the culminating factor of the path. However what the sutta repeated states from the beginning is that right view is the forerunner of the path:
āThe Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors ā right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness ā is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.
"Of those, right view is the forerunner.āā-MN 117
Note that the transcendent or evolving wisdom factor of right view is comprised of the investigation factor of the seven factors of enlightenment and that generates the transcendent characteristic of right view. Just like a patient in an operation, some samadhi is necessary for the investigation resulting in insight to function, but the anaesthetic is not the main issue:
"And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.āā-MN 117
Eating is the final stage in a process beginning with farming, then cleaning, cutting, cooking etc. Eating is not something that you ādoā but something that happen to you when the prerequisites are met - food has been prepared, food is in your mouth, jaws are movingā¦
You say this with the apparent assumption that meditation is not āwhat really countsā. This is in direct contradiction to the Buddhaās teachings. He taught jhÄna practice as the path to enlightenement, and continually taught his disciples to practice jhÄna. If that doesnāt ācountā, I wonder what does?!
I donāt know how youāve come to the conclusion that meditation is ānot doableā. Again this seems to directly contradict the entire canon.
Itās worth noting Japanese schools such as that of Shinan and Nichiren - they believed that successful meditation was no longer possible, because itās a ādark ageā (mappÅ). So they said no point in doing it, and they made up ways that they said would work by getting them a good circumstance to practice next life in heaven, ways such as repeating the title of an old book. And they said that way works.
Of course itās rather absurd for these people to have not merely failed in their Buddhist practice, but then concluded that because they failed, itās actually impossible for anyone to not fail. A rather egocentric conclusion if there ever was one!
This isnāt quite accurate. From DN33:
Four ways of developing immersion further. There is a way of developing immersion further that leads to blissful meditation in the present life. There is a way of developing immersion further that leads to gaining knowledge and vision. There is a way of developing immersion further that leads to mindfulness and awareness. There is a way of developing immersion further that leads to the ending of defilements.
Jhanas are for blissful meditation in the present life. Immersion to end defilements is different. I read this as āuse jhana, but do not wallow in itā. Self-effacement is easier with the jhanas, but the jhanas themselves are not the goal.
Your quote in now way refutes what I said.
If you want, you can read the 4 main NikÄyas and youāll see how essential jhÄna is. Or you can find the definition of right concentration in the MahasatipatthÄna sutta - defined as the 4 jhÄnas. Or you can find the Buddhaās first use of the term middle way, where he explicitely defines jhÄna as the path to enlightenment, recounting when he actually discovered that path, and follow by him recounting how he became enlightened through jhÄna practice.
Please explain your interpretation of MN8 Self-Effacement. That would be very helpful to me.
Samatha meditation removes the emotive roots of greed and hate; vipassana removes the intellectual root of ignorance:
"These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? Tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana).
"When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Passion is abandoned.
"When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned.
"Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of passion is there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there discernment-release.āā-AN 2.20
The Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta SN 56.11 Where the Buddha used the term āmiddle wayā, doesnāt mention the word jhana, but it repeatedly refers to insight and the duties associated with the four noble truths as the source of enlightenment:
"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose āā-SN 56.11
I started meditating not knowing anything at all about Buddhism, just as a need to find a way to get relief from existential angst. To start, I didnāt have good instruction or training, just a 10 day Goenka retreat. It was really difficult and challenging, but I stuck with it because I knew that I was heading in the right direction.
After a year or so I was getting bored and wasnāt seeing the point of merely following the breath and body scanning. I discovered The Direct Path to Realization by Analayo and I got my first glimpse into an entire spectrum of what the Buddha was pointing to.
Iāve only been practicing for 8 years but take the the gradual training seriously, impossible to go back. But I must say, in the spirit of this discussion, that my method (if I can call it that) has been to take each teaching that I come across and try to understand it, read the suttas and meditate. I must be a little dim-witted, but I take weeks or months to meditate and watch carefully in my day-to-day life to see each teaching, watch things operate, see how each fits with all the other teachings, checking to make sure that Iām on track and not getting off into left field.
For me, meditation is where I can really let things carefully settle. Itās where all of my unexpected insights emerge and fall into place, creating a springboard into the next page. I have a history of anxiety, depression, substance abuse and other destructive behaviors. The Buddhaās teachings have saved my life and if I didnāt meditate Iām certain that I personally couldnāt have made much progress. I can guarantee you that without sustained seclusion in meditation I would never have been able to keep the 5 precepts, guard my sense doors or develop any semblance of confidence, effort, mindfulness, collectedness or wisdom.
I donāt expect my path to be exactly like every other follower of the Buddha and I wouldnāt expect anyone to practice like I do. I think thatās the beauty of what the Buddha taught in the suttas, that he pointed to where to go, how to get there, what to look out for and what to expect. But he was also compassionate and met people where they were and helped them in creative ways to enter through a door that worked for them, that led them to liberation.
At this stage of my path and practice I know, and others around me clearly see, that I have transformed radically over the last 8 years. Meditation has worked well for me and does right now, even if my path is different than others.
Iām reminded of an allegory:
An astronomer spends all night looking into her telescope. Hoping to see what is so interesting, the king asks for a telescope, and though he spends all night staring into it all he sees is blackness. Confounded, he finally asks the astronomer: āwhy do you spend all night studying this telescope?ā The astronomer replies, āI donāt study telescopes, sir. I study the stars.ā
The king may have left the cap on?
Yet another metaphor I guess?
āWithout stirring abroad, One can know the whole world; Without looking out of the window One can see the way of heaven. The further one goes The less one knows.ā - Lao Tzu
Some quotes for you:
AN 9.36
āMendicants, I say that the first absorption is a basis for ending the defilements.
āPaį¹hamampÄhaį¹, bhikkhave, jhÄnaį¹ nissÄya ÄsavÄnaį¹ khayaį¹ vadÄmi;
The second absorption is also a basis for ending the defilements.
dutiyampÄhaį¹,
bhikkhave, jhÄnaį¹ nissÄya ÄsavÄnaį¹ khayaį¹ vadÄmi;
The third absorption is also a basis for ending the defilements.
tatiyampÄhaį¹,
bhikkhave, jhÄnaį¹ nissÄya ÄsavÄnaį¹ khayaį¹ vadÄmi;
The fourth absorption is also a basis for ending the defilements.
catutthampÄhaį¹, bhikkhave, jhÄnaį¹ nissÄya ÄsavÄnaį¹ khayaį¹ vadÄmi
See also An 9.41 where the Buddha describes how he practiced the 4 jhÄna and immaterial attainments, and then stated:
As long as I hadnāt entered into and withdrawn from these nine progressive meditative attainments in both forward and reverse order, I didnāt announce my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods, MÄras, and BrahmÄs, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans.
YÄvakÄ«vaƱcÄhaį¹, Änanda, imÄ nava anupubbavihÄrasamÄpattiyo na evaį¹ anulomapaį¹ilomaį¹ samÄpajjimpi vuį¹į¹hahimpi, neva tÄvÄhaį¹, Änanda, sadevake loke samÄrake sabrahmake sassamaį¹abrÄhmaį¹iyÄ pajÄya sadevamanussÄya āanuttaraį¹ sammÄsambodhiį¹ abhisambuddhoāti paccaƱƱÄsiį¹.
DN 22, MahÄsatipaį¹į¹hÄna Sutta (the more usual translatoin for āright emersionā is āright concentrationā:
And what is right immersion?
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammÄsamÄdhi?
Itās when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kÄmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaį¹ savicÄraį¹ vivekajaį¹ pÄ«tisukhaį¹ paį¹hamaį¹ jhÄnaį¹ upasampajja viharati.
As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, they enter and remain in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected.
VitakkavicÄrÄnaį¹ vÅ«pasamÄ ajjhattaį¹ sampasÄdanaį¹ cetaso ekodibhÄvaį¹ avitakkaį¹ avicÄraį¹ samÄdhijaį¹ pÄ«tisukhaį¹ dutiyaį¹ jhÄnaį¹ upasampajja viharati.
And with the fading away of rapture, they enter and remain in the third absorption, where they meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, āEquanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.ā
PÄ«tiyÄ ca virÄgÄ upekkhako ca viharati, sato ca sampajÄno, sukhaƱca kÄyena paį¹isaį¹vedeti, yaį¹ taį¹ ariyÄ Äcikkhanti āupekkhako satimÄ sukhavihÄrÄ«āti tatiyaį¹ jhÄnaį¹ upasampajja viharati.
Giving up pleasure and pain, and ending former happiness and sadness, they enter and remain in the fourth absorption, without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness.
Sukhassa ca pahÄnÄ dukkhassa ca pahÄnÄ pubbeva somanassadomanassÄnaį¹ atthaį¹ gamÄ adukkhamasukhaį¹ upekkhÄsatipÄrisuddhiį¹ catutthaį¹ jhÄnaį¹ upasampajja viharati.
This is called right immersion.
Ayaį¹ vuccati, bhikkhave, sammÄsamÄdhi.
The Buddha specifically calling jhÄna the path to awakening, in MN 36:
āI recall sitting in the cool shade of the rose-apple tree while my father the Sakyan was off working. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I entered and remained in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. āabhijÄnÄmi kho panÄhaį¹ pitu sakkassa kammante sÄ«tÄya jambucchÄyÄya nisinno vivicceva kÄmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaį¹ savicÄraį¹ vivekajaį¹ pÄ«tisukhaį¹ paį¹hamaį¹ jhÄnaį¹ upasampajja viharitÄ. Could that be the path to awakening?ā SiyÄ nu kho eso maggo bodhÄyÄāti? Stemming from that memory came the realization: Tassa mayhaį¹, aggivessana, satÄnusÄri viƱƱÄį¹aį¹ ahosi: ā That is the path to awakening!ā āeseva maggo bodhÄyÄāti.
Right. But he does specifically define the middle way as the Noble Eightfold Path, and remember, the Noble Eightfold Path is the path of jhÄna - it all leads up, sequentially, to the 8th step, which is defined as jhÄna, as I quoted above. SN 56.11:
And what is that middle way?
KatamÄ ca sÄ, bhikkhave, majjhimÄ paį¹ipadÄ tathÄgatena abhisambuddhÄ cakkhukaraį¹Ä« ƱÄį¹akaraį¹Ä« upasamÄya abhiƱƱÄya sambodhÄya nibbÄnÄya saį¹vattati?
It is simply this noble eightfold path, that is:
Ayameva ariyo aį¹į¹haį¹ giko maggo, seyyathidaį¹ā
right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right immersion.
sammÄdiį¹į¹hi sammÄsaį¹ kappo sammÄvÄcÄ sammÄkammanto sammÄÄjÄ«vo sammÄvÄyÄmo sammÄsati sammÄsamÄdhi.
I canāt remember now the source which I refered to as the first use of the term middle way, and I may have been mistken but donāt have time to check more than I already have - but basically the two extremes discussion even from SN 56.11 show us that jhÄna is the middle way:
Mendicants, these two extremes should not be cultivated by one who has gone forth.
āDveme, bhikkhave, antÄ pabbajitena na sevitabbÄ.
What two?
Katame dve?
Indulgence in sensual pleasures, which is low, crude, ordinary, ignoble, and pointless. And indulgence in self-mortification, which is painful, ignoble, and pointless.
Yo cÄyaį¹ kÄmesu kÄmasukhallikÄnuyogo hÄ«no gammo pothujjaniko anariyo anatthasaį¹hito, yo cÄyaį¹ attakilamathÄnuyogo dukkho anariyo anatthasaį¹hito.
Avoiding these two extremes, the Realized One woke up by understanding the middle way, which gives vision and knowledge, and leads to peace, direct knowledge, awakening, and extinguishment.
Ete kho, bhikkhave, ubho ante anupagamma majjhimÄ paį¹ipadÄ tathÄgatena abhisambuddhÄ cakkhukaraį¹Ä« ƱÄį¹akaraį¹Ä« upasamÄya abhiƱƱÄya sambodhÄya nibbÄnÄya saį¹vattati.And what is that middle way?
KatamÄ ca sÄ, bhikkhave, majjhimÄ paį¹ipadÄ tathÄgatena abhisambuddhÄ cakkhukaraį¹Ä« ƱÄį¹akaraį¹Ä« upasamÄya abhiƱƱÄya sambodhÄya nibbÄnÄya saį¹vattati?
It is simply this noble eightfold path, that is:
Ayameva ariyo aį¹į¹haį¹ giko maggo, seyyathidaį¹ā
Check that against the MN 36 narrative and youāll see that he rejected the first when he left his home, then rejected the second when rejecting Jain practice he ended up doing. Then he realised that jhÄna is beyond those two extremes, or outside of them you could say. Then he defines the path of jhÄna as the path to awakening. Then he makes a scheme for teaching jhÄna training, which is the Noble Eightfold Path, which he therefore calls the middle path.
Iām not familiar with this sutta but I gave it a go. It talked about āeffacementā, which is an English word Iām not familiar with. The dictionary doesnāt help me much - for āeffaceā it says:
- erase (a mark) from a surface
- make oneself appear insignificant or inconspicuous
Not obvious to me how the sentences make sense with either of those meanings. But the PED gives this for the PÄli, ā sallekhaā:
- austere penance, the higher life
Since I am not familiar with the usage of this term in the canon, my view is only speculative. But I find myself sondering if he is referring to the kind of practices non-Buddhists were doing in India. Iāve spent time in the forests and countryside of India with spiritual practitioners who have not spoken in many years, or help their hand in the air for years - there are others who will never sit, and so on. They believe that will get them closer to god, or get to moksha or whatever. I wonder if that is the type of āaustere penanceā that sallekha is referring to here.
If so, it would appear that first, the Buddha is saying no, donāt misunderstand, jhÄna is not some kind of penance, by which you get a reward because of doing something really hard (training for ages in concentration, sitting totally still for hours every day etc.).
But no, that is not why jhÄna practice works. Itās a totaly different principle than the idea of getting benefit merely because somethign is hard to do, such as holding your hand in the air for years etc.
So heās saying no, thatās not sallekha.
But then (if my interpretation of sallekha is correct), he redefines sallekha! He did this with many words. So if thatās whatās happening here, heās basically saying no, if you really want to endure difficult things, then the real sallekha is to extinguish your cruelness, to not kill, not steal etc.
So whereas the non-Buddhist sallekha may be based around ritual, the power of specific actions, heās ethicising it. Heās making the tasks directly related to ethical behaviour. Holding your hand in the air, or never sitting down etc., these are all difficult, but in the Buddhaās view I think those would be seen as useless. This austerity the Buddha is proposing is also difficult, but itās totally based on inter-relation - how our actions affect others. And this morality is the necessary foundation for concentration training also, as it happens.
And please note that he concludes the sutta by instructing to pracrice jhÄna:
Here are these roots of trees, and here are these empty huts. Practice absorption, Cunda! Donāt be negligent! Donāt regret it later! This is my instruction.ā
EtÄni,
cunda, rukkhamÅ«lÄni, etÄni suƱƱÄgÄrÄni, jhÄyatha, cunda, mÄ pamÄdattha, mÄ pacchÄvippaį¹isÄrino ahuvatthaāayaį¹ kho amhÄkaį¹ anusÄsanÄ«āti.
Bare in mind that thatās the first time Iāve read that last sutta you asked me about, so my interpretation might not be correct. Thatās what comes off the top of my head when I read it though.
I was thinking some more on our conversations and realized something else that might help. First, Iāll present what I think is your perspective, which is that the Noble Eight-Fold Path ends with Right Immersion. So yes. You are quite right that Right Immersion is the right goal. Absolutely right.
There is also a ten-fold path.
From DN33:
Ten qualities of an adept: an adeptās right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right immersion, right knowledge, and right freedom.
Beyond immersion lies right knowledge and right freedom. In Pali, these are:
asekkhaį¹ sammÄƱÄį¹aį¹, asekkhÄ sammÄvimutti
This is the Arahant path. Beyond the conceit āI amā. And this is what Self-Effacement meansāshedding that conceit of self-existence.
Because of MN8 and DN33, I do not think we can stop at jhana. I do think we need jhana to help us shed those last pieces of self we cling to in our deepest unmindful corners.
Freedom is also critically important in SN12.23 Vital Conditions, which describes the full path into suffering as well as the escape. Immersion is definitely there, but it is on the way to freedom.
The 8fold path is the path of training. The extra 2 are the 2 fruits of the training. This still means the 8fold path is the path of jhÄna. Itās totally a jhÄna training path if you examine it. And it produces those 2 fruits. They are not 2 extra trainings.
Whoever talked of stopping at jhÄna? But you had better not stop before attaining and training in jhÄna, if you want to consider yourself as following the 8fold path! The Buddha taught that jhÄna is essential for enlightenment. And thatās why the 8fold path (= jhÄna path) results in those 2 fruits.
No-one I know of is claiming otherwise. I didn;t think that was even questioned. But many many people use arguments related to this to actually reject jhÄna practice. And diong that is quite literally rejecting the Buddhaās path to enlightenment.
And donāt forget, what is the message that MN 8 leaves us with? Go practice jhÄna! He said it so emphatically as the conclusion of that whole teaching! āDonāt be negligent! Donāt regret it later! This is my instruction.ā
I am chasing you all over!
Very well, I shall respond to this thread, not the other one you started.
I was not denying jhana. I was simply pointing out that MN8 indicates that there are different ways to engage in jhana. Blissing out in the present life is fine, but it is more effective to apply jhana to the self-effacement. If we take jhana itself as the goal, then we start climbing jhana ladders and feeling good about getting to a certain jhana level.
What the Buddha is saying in MN8 is āeven if you can only get to first jhana, use that for self
-effacementā. He is also saying, ācongratulations! you got to fourth jhana! now use it for self-effacementā. If the Buddha had to say all this in so much detail it means that monks were actually just happily abiding in jhana blissing out in the present life. MN8 is an encouragement to use jhana correctly and pick up the pace.
Ha ha, sorry. I commented on the other thread because it might stimulate more discussion of that sutta there, and also be easier to locate in future. Iād love to see what results of good discussion on this. Interesting sutta!
Can you please quote the different ways to engage in jhÄna from that sutta? I did not notice multiple ways there, though as I said I only just read it.
Lol. I have to point you back over to the other thread! See you there!
Sure, letās bring it all there, easier for others to follow and useful discussion of that sutta. I await your quotes - so far I donāt see them.
Quote: āThen he defines the path of jhÄna as the path to awakening.ā
MN 36 concludes with the the standard reference to the threefold higher knowledge (te-vijja) (MN 60), that is remembrance of former rebirths, the vision of the fate of beings according to their kamma, extinction of all cankers. Both MN 36 and MN 60 clearly show that the four jhanas are completed before the attainment and are a foundation for them. However the first two knowledges are mundane, concerned with cyclic (conditioned) existence (and connected with mundane right view), and are not a necessary condition for sainthood, only the final supermundane power, extinction of all cankers attainable through penetrating insight being so.
Third knowledge:
"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it was actually present, that āThis is stressā¦ This is the origination of stressā¦ This is the cessation of stressā¦ This is the way leading to the cessation of stressā¦ These are fermentationsā¦ This is the origination of fermentationsā¦ This is the cessation of fermentationsā¦ This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.ā My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, āReleased.ā I discerned that āBirth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.ā
"This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose ā as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.āāMN 36
Wisdom is the opposite of ignorance, it is wisdom obtained through insight that eliminates ignorance and leads to experiential knowledge of the four noble truths.
Do you have a citation for where he advocates this teaching approach?
It seems to work, as Iāve had many experiences of these (partially understood) seeds beginning to germinate on reflection, with repeated listening, and during meditation.