Meso-Mādhyamaka; or, the Middle Middle

We are all ripples in a still pool. We spread out around our center, in circles that become larger as they grow weaker. Experience lays itself out around us, for we are all the center of our own world. The Buddha is no different. Only when the ripples are fading, we throw another pebble in the water. The Buddha lets the ripples fade, the energy disperse, until there is no sign of his presence, still less his passing.

We are none of us ripples, for ripples have no agency. The ripples’ center remains in place, but we move, creating complexes, eddies, and currents. Nor is there, in the strictest sense, a pool, for what pool is still enough for us? No water is truly still. And not all energy requires a medium.

We are light, passing through a vacuum, illuminating that which we pass, bearing no weight except the whisper of atoms.

We are darkness, hiding our true nature from ourselves, and from others. On the surface is a mere reflection of a shadow, while we remain unknown. We are known only by inferring from our absence; we know darkness because of the light.

We are knowing, we are ignorance. We are sane, we are crazy. We are truth, we are lies.

We are metaphor. For metaphor is what language is—one thing pointing to another thing, as like it as seems it, but no more. And our self is forged in the fires of language.

What we are not is proto-. We are as is, full and complete. Nor are our thoughts, our words, our ideas proto- anything. They are our center. Our world emerges from us like ripples in a still lake, like light in a dark place, like knowledge among the ignorant.


Davids Graeber and Wengrew, in their The Dawn of Everything, discuss the historical framing of cultures as “proto-” this or “proto-” that. They point out that to the people living in those cultures, they were not proto- anything: they were how they lived. Often such “proto-” cultures lasted for thousands of years.

Historians inhabit their own ripples. Modern historians like to imagine that industrial, secularized, democratic, capitalist societies are the end point of human evolution, because that’s where they are. That’s what pays their bills. That’s what they learned, im- and ex-plicitly their whole lives, from everything they saw and heard.

Or something is proto- because it precedes something that they think is important: the Roman Empire, the Enlightenment, WWII.

No goatherder on the hills of Sicily thought of themselves as proto-. They herded their goats. They cursed the weather, made love to their wife, scolded their children, and made cheese from goat milk. The fact that, many years later, their land would be included in a historical entity that future generations would call the “Roman Empire” is a fact of supreme irrelevance. Calling them proto- tells us nothing about them, and quite a bit about the person who calls them that.

No human is proto-. We can’t understand people or what matters to people without setting aside what matters to us, our own conceptions and priorities, and thinking what matters to them. We live in our own ripples, intersecting with the ripples of the past, and anticipating the ripples of the future. But whatever the time may be, we are in the Middle. We are meso-.


The Buddha called his path the Middle Way and his teaching the Middle Teaching. He defined these in various ways; they don’t have a single meaning. Rather, they are a perspective, a way of seeing.

A view, if you will.

I can’t say whether the Buddha originated the idea of the Middle Way. It is an obvious idea, so I doubt he was the first to think of it. There’s always a middle between the goal-posts: the point is how you place the posts.

The Mādhyamaka school arose much later, positioning itself as a re-assertion of the Middle Way where the goal posts were other Buddhists. But the Suttas aren’t “proto-” Mādhyamaka. They are what they are, and they say what they say.

Why is the history framed this way? The answer is always the same: because of the interests of the history’s author. I don’t know anything about Gomez, the author of the “proto-Mādhyamaka” idea, but I’d guess they’re primarily a Mādhyamaka. That is where their ripples are centered.

That means that they are interested in a teaching that claims to stem from the Buddha, but which was formulated much later. This creates a stress, which provokes a creative response. This is good: insight comes not from passing down received truths, but from dynamic resolution of opposites.

Mādhyamaka, rightly or wrongly, is usually considered as a philosophical school of Mahāyāna. Like all traditions, Mahāyāna is both conservative and creative. It is a lamentable reflex to consider the creativity of traditions as a flaw. On the contrary, traditions must be creative, else they become dead letters, stifling, rigid, and oppressive. The creativity of Mahāyāna is its glory: it shook things up. Of course, it is now 2,000 years later. The authors of Mahāyāna texts are long dead and their creativity long fossilized, so that today mainstream Mahāyāna tradition is interred in its own orthodoxy, no less than Theravada. Creativity today exists in exactly the same place that the early Mahāyāna flourished: the margins.

So the question is not whether the Mādhyamaka added anything new. That’s a given. Nor is it whether Mādhyamaka (or the Mahāyāna in general) inherited things from early Buddhism. That’s another given. The actual historical question is whether certain things that were thought to be creative turn out to be conservative. In other words, did Mādhyamaka draw on the Suttas in ways that have not always been appreciated?

We know that this happens. A classical example is when Nāgarjuna says that emptiness is dependent origination. It seems like a bold creative stroke, as no such statement is found in the Pali canon. It turns out, however, that it is found in the Saṁyukta Āgama, which is the version of the early canon that Nāgarjuna was using. So when he said that dependent origination is emptiness, he was not being creative, he was merely quoting a well-known saying from the Suttas, assuming that his audience would have been familiar with it.

The Mādhyamakas were answering to early Buddhism. But it’s asymmetrical: early Buddhism is not answering to Mādhyamaka. This is where the “proto-” framing is misleading; it implies early Buddhism is leading to something. But it isn’t. Like Mādhyamaka, the Suttas are responding to what came earlier.


The proto- framing sees the Suttas as leading to the Mādhyamaka:

  • Suttas → Mādhyamaka

But the Suttas have never heard of Mādhyamaka. From their point of view, the Suttas are answering to the Upaniṣads (which, in turn, answer to the Vedas). Mādhyamaka in turn is answering to the Suttas.

  • Upaniṣads ← Suttas ← Mādhyamaka

In this case, when we say “Upaniṣads” we pretty much mean just one sage: Yajnavālkya. Several relevant terms of the “Proto-Mādhyamaka” argument are found in his works. Mostly, in fact, in a single passage, the dialogue between Yajnavālkya and his wife, Maitreyī. I believe that the Sutta passages have adopted these terms directly from his teachings.

Yajnavālkya was the center of his own ripple. He inherited the colossal weight of Vedic tradition, and according to that tradition, compiled a massive tome on ritual methodology. Yet he broke with tradition by insisting that truth was to be found only in the Self, which he identified with “infinite consciousness”. To accomplish this realization, he broke further with tradition, leaving home to devote himself to contemplative renunciation.

He insisted that the things we think we know are not what we really know. All that which we take as most valuable is but the fleeting manifestation of a deeper reality. He was the master of ritual who said ritual is only valuable to “one who knows this”, where “this” is the hidden, secret meaning. He was a master of debate, but knew that what is thought or spoken is but a symptom of the truth. He used an apophatic analysis, the way of negation, to cast aside all that is unnecessary—not that! not that! All these are but perceptions, transient and limited ways of knowing. They disappear, like ripples, in the vast ocean of consciousness: the unseen seer, the unheard hearer, the unthought thinker, the unknown knower.

It is a curious thing that, generation after generation, people who study Buddhism get excited when they think they’ve discovered a radical new teaching in the Suttas, and it turns out to be just Yajnavālkya. Non-dualism, anti-realism, objectless awareness, the via negativa.

Sometimes I feel like it would be a lot simpler to be a Hindu. I don’t understand why so many people seem to just not like Buddhism.

Or perhaps something else is going on. Could it be that when we decry the “dualistic” and “realistic” teachings of the Suttas, with their insistence on “right view” and their morality and their monks, we are rather missing something? Might it possibly be that the problem is not the rigidity of the Suttas, but the rigidity with which they are apprehended? Could the whole thing be a straw man? Could it really be about … us?


I know little about Mādhyamaka, but I was struck by one odd detail of the Proto-Mādhyamaka argument. If I understand correctly, it argues that there is a strand of early Buddhism (primarily in the Aṭṭhakavagga) distinct from mainstream teachings that articulated non-dual and anti-realist views, thus supporting the (otherwise heretical) views of Mādhyamaka.

But that’s not the Mādhyamaka position. The Mādhyamakas argued that the ordinary mainstream teachings (four noble truths, dependent origination, etc.) had been mistakenly interpreted as dualist and realist, whereas they were in fact relational and phenomenological. Mādhyamaka did not argue to dismiss the mainstream teachings of early Buddhism as philosophically crude (and probably inauthentic). Rather, like all Buddhists, they accepted the mainstream teachings. They just thought there were subtleties to them that then-conventional exegesis was overlooking.

For what its worth, I agree.

The Mādhyamakas didn’t rely on the Aṭṭhakavagga, and I don’t know if they’d even read it. You don’t have to, because the teachings of early Buddhism are not secreted away in special obscure teachings. They are right there, out in the open where they have always been.


I started out this essay with a series of contradictions. I’m messing with you. But not really. That’s how language works. A paradox is not a metaphysic: it’s a language game. Truth is flexible and many-faceted, and people, actual live humans like the Buddha, express those truths is complex ways that, on the surface, seem contradictory. They must do, because the world is like that. “It is dark” is true at a certain time. “It is light” is equally true at another time.

The Buddha studied a Vedic literary culture that raised to the highest level the methods of hiding and obscuring the truth, of saying the same thing and its opposite, of concealing anything important behind layers of deception—for “the gods love hidden things”. For the most part, the Buddha preferred to be explicit and clear. But give him a break: how about we don’t throw a metaphysical conniption every time he plays with words?

The burden of the Aṭṭhakavagga is to warn us against taking our “perceptions”—borrowing from Yajnavālkya the term saññā for reductive, limited knowing—as the truth, for any “knowledge”—and here the Pali ñāṇa is used in a distinctive way to include “false belief”—based on what is “seen, heard, or thought”—the traditional means of acquiring spiritual learning, here excluding meditation, which elsewhere is included as viññāta, the “known” (not viññāṇa, the “knowing”)—is unreliable, leading to endless squabbles and runon sentences. But we can’t help it. We invent metaphysics based on passing nothings and defend them till the day we die, whenupon our tombstone is etched, “Here lies Sujato. He will be fondly remembered for winning many arguments on the internet.”

I do apologize, but it seems to me that’s what academic debates are doing to the Aṭṭhakavagga. They are taking it, not as a warning against fruitless metaphysical speculation, but as an invitation. Based on a few lines and phrases, a whole metaphysic is invented. Not just in the Suttas, but stretching forward in time, a vast superstructure of abstracted thought. As alien to the Aṭṭhakavagga as, well, aliens.

The view of no-view is a trap. Of course we have views. That’s how the mind works. And it’s not just that no-view is a view, not just that it is a view that makes no sense, it’s that it is a view that undermines sense-making and autonomy. It’s an authoritarian view. “Why are you thinking so much? Let go of your views and you will be happy!”

No-view sounds cool and hip, but it is a favorite among a certain kind of cult leader. No-view means what prevails is not reason but the other thing. You know, that one. The view of the one sitting in the big chair. He Who Sits In The Big Chair does not have views. Whatever he thinks just is. It manifests due to awesomeness. Some call it “wisdom”, some “power”.

I call it a reason to get up and leave.


An empathetic reading starts by listening closely and carefully to the text as it speaks. I left the Aṭṭhakavagga and the next chapter, the Pārāyanavagga, to the very end of my translation project. I wanted to make sure I had the full context of the whole Suttas behind me before beginning. As I delved deeply and slowly, visiting again texts that I had memorized decades previously, I found, again and again, words that still laid largely unheard.

The greatest scholars of modern Buddhism have exercised themselves on these verses. They clarified much, yet much remained. I did what I could, but I am sure there is much left to do.

As I translate, a good friend walks by my side. I call it “the principle of least meaning”. The idea is that texts, and ancient spiritual scriptures most of all, become overburdened with a surfeit of meaning. It becomes impossible to read them or think about them without carrying the great weight of all the past opinions. So our task should be to divest them of meaning wherever possible. If the same passage can be interpreted in a slighter sense, we should do so.

Let it breathe. Be kind; they’re only words. Asking a few lines of ancient poetry to bear the weight of a trans-historical metaphysic is unbecoming, ungracious. Let us read lightly.

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A bit unrelated, but this is exactly what a study of Tibetan Treasure Literature found.

And it’s, of course, my own reading that the MMK and much of the early Prajnaparamita were in fact a (conservative!) dismissal of what was then the new, innovative philosophy sweeping Buddhism: the Abhidhamma.

We now associate the Abhidhamma with the most conservative Theravādins but at the time it must have been quite contentious! (As, for example, the Kathāvatthu reports)

:joy: :clap:

It is kind of ironic isn’t it how those traditions that most eschew “words and letters” end up producing the most of them :face_with_hand_over_mouth: Look at the volumes and volumes of Zen literature, for example!

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I think it’s because the law of path of least resistance - I think people want to believe in certain ideas much more readily, and they go on saying “Buddha couldn’t have advocated for this; therefore he must’ve advocated for [insert opposite of what’s taught in Agamas].”

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I do not believe this. Mind can also be empty, desireless, signless, undirected and open. It does not have to have a view. Or, what does it mean that mind has always a view? What view?

i believe that if we see in all honesty into our own functioning, we really see that all that thinking, hammering out by reasoning, involvement in ideas, conceiving, is really not so free. It is also a kind of addictive force, an obsession, a tendency, a fetter. If Nibbana also represents freedom, it can be understood that this strong tendency to become involved in ideas, views, standpoints, conceivings is not a good thing to make even stronger. Not something we must stimulate.

But as long as we have this habit to become involved in conceivings, we at least can train in such a way we are involved in views, ideas, mental images, mental proliferation that is at least wholesome.

But still better is to be not involved in them, of course. In the end, all formations must be seen as not me, mine, my self. Not only the unwholesome ones. Regarding things in certain ways (view), is also such formation that must be seen as not me, mine and my self.

The portrayed Buddha also says we can use the breath to cut of thoughts and we must train to be free of conceiving.

If there is no conceiving where is the view?

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I’d say you are projecting hard.

When people talk about no view I always interpreted, maybe wrongly, that they are talking about the approach suggested in Snp4.3 and other similar passages.
It makes complete sense and there is no authoritarian smells in it, whatsoever.

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Not projecting, alas, merely conveying the bitter-won truths of experience.

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Regarding what it actually means, “to hold no views”, see here:

https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=770148#p770148

axax, and Venerable Sujato, perhaps you’re speaking past each other? I assume when Venerable was castigating the no-view crowd he was talking about several guru’s who’ve used such language to justify abhorrent behavior. Still, the ‘no-view’ language of Snp4.3 is quite different from this. :pray:

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Thank you, Bhante! I enjoyed reading your post, although, I will not pretend I have understood it all.
It also reminds me I should finally finish The Dawn of Everything.

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It’s really worth it, so many insights on every page.

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:pray: Thanks for this, Venerable, but…

I have no view about any of it! :smiley:

No, for real… I do. To all:

On the supposed “no view” doctrine of the Aṭṭhakavagga:

Jumping right in, in his article “Proto-Mādhyamika in the Pāli canon” (Philosophy East and West vol.26.2) Luis Gomez was also aware that the Aṭṭhakavagga uses some terms differently from the norm. He attests saññā is, in some contexts, “the wrongly applied faculty of apperception”. He also says: “ñāṇa [is] used here to indicate the false science of those who were still attached to views.”

But then immediately following that, he claims that “their attachment was not deemed to be merely the attachment to wrong views, but to views in general” because “the Aṭṭhakavagga speaks of giving up all views”. It’s very odd that he sees the issue with saññā and ñāṇa but apparently does not realize that the word diṭṭhi likewise can mean a false, wrong view; a mere belief or opinion, as opposed to right view which comes from seeing things as they really are. This use of diṭṭhi is also widely attested by dictionaries, including the old PTS one, which would have been available to Gomez:

diṭṭhi: view, belief, dogma, theory, speculation, esp. false theory, groundless or unfounded opinion

I’m sure this use of diṭṭhi is not unique to the Aṭṭhakavagga either, as is the case for saññā (not sure about ñāṇa).

Some passages he quotes to support the no-view idea are either taken out of context or read with a bias towards this idea, if not being mistranslations. For example, for someone to “not rely on anything” in Snp4.5 doesn’t mean they have no view at all. In fact, I would argue that if we do translate na pacceti as “not rely” here, contextually it actually means to have right view!

Adopting Ven. Sujato’s translation:

That’s why a mendicant ought not depend (na nissayeyya)
on what’s seen, heard, or thought, or on precepts and vows. […]

They don’t make things up or promote them,
and don’t subscribe to any of the [dogmatic] doctrines.
The brahmin has no need to be led by precept or vow;
gone to the far shore, one such does not rely [on these] (na pacceti).

The noble ones, with the arising of right view, give up reliance on precepts and vows, which is one of the first three fetters. They are thereafter said (elsewhere) to be “not reliant on others”. They now rely on their own right view, is the idea, needing no more doctrines, nor faith in certain practices. Even the Buddha’s doctrine they don’t actually need anymore, since now they have their own correct view.

(Ven. @Sujato himself translates differently, by the way: “gone to the far shore, one such does not return”, which may be grammatically more agreeable but seems contextually out of place??)

That’s just one example, for lack of time, about which alone much more can be said too. I also didn’t re-read the entire article, so perhaps some points are more valid. But if someone knowledgeable does have the time, it might actually be a good project to go through the entire Aṭṭhakavagga in a similar spirit. I think a clear message will appear: that the practitioner indeed should not rely on views based on faith, tradition, opinion, and intellect, but that is because they should attain right view through direct experience.

On the “proto-Mādhyamika” suggestion:

Despite the title of the article, I think Gomez is actually much more nuanced about this. He says, for example, “there are no parallels in the Aṭṭha corresponding to the philosophical groundwork of the Madhyamaka”. Also, “the differences [between the two] that exist are seldom unimportant”. He then points out a large number of differences which he thinks are quite fundamental. He draws parallels between the two, but the idea that the Aṭṭhakavagga actually would have lead to, or be “proto-”, Mādhyamika he finds “highly speculative”. He agrees it can’t even be shown that Nāgārjuna knew of this text, which would be a place to start to prove the idea.

In response to Wynne’s essay on this matter on academia.edu, an ex-student (?) of Gomez pointed out that the article was originally titled, “Proto-Mādhyamika in the Pāli canon**?**” He apparently got quite annoyed when the editors took the question mark away. (Free bonus tip: don’t publish anywhere with editors. Or get one with no views!)

On the limits of language and supposed “ineffable” goal:

This was actually the reason I stumbled upon Gomez’ essay a while back. I have more to say on this, but another time, perhaps. I’ve already said too much. For now, I’ll just quote Eviatar Shulman (Rethinking the Buddha) on the Buddha’s enlightenment:

It is worth reflecting briefly on the common notion that the ultimate religious vision must be “ineffable”. We must ask ourselves if the much more common experience of, say, eating an orange, is “effable” in any true sense. It should be clear that this experience is never, and possibly in principle may never be, fully captured by its verbal description. Surely much can be said about eating an orange, but in an important sense this mundane experience must be thought not to be conveyed by language, probably in a similar degree to so-called “ineffable” or “mystical” religious experiences. This observation does not deny that religious, mystical experiences are more profound and significant than eating an orange. But a strong notion of “ineffability” as a label for “mystical” experience is in need of proof.

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Perhaps getting rid of self-view gets rid of view as well, gets rid of everything, and vanishes the illusion of what we think of as the entire person, into Nibbana, and there is that age old aphorism–it can not truly be described.

Does the Buddha have Right View? Does He walk the Noble Eightfold Path forever? Or is the Path simply the most Perfect Skillful Means, a catalyst for those trapped in Samsara to Awaken? What is the importance of the Dhamma when it comes to a Full Awakening in Nibbana?

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Awesome, thanks! I was secretly hoping that you’d contribute something on this. Obviously I’m just making some broad reflections, seeing as I have neither time nor texts for proper study. But this helps a lot.

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Bhante! :smiley:

I find this argument unconvincing for the same reason I find eternalist perspectives arguing that “Buddha denies this existence; but not all existence!”

To begin with, I think we can agree that arahants leave behind even Dhamma, yes? So they abandon everything eventually. This means, at some point, even Right View, truth, dhamma - everything will be abandoned as well, no?

Eights don’t mention anywhere “Sage doesn’t depend on this, because he depends on that”.

Let’s take Snp 4.5 in full:

If, maintaining that theirs is the “ultimate” view,
a person makes it out to be highest in the world;
then they declare all others are “lesser”;
that’s why they’re not over disputes.

If they see an advantage for themselves
in what’s seen, heard, or thought;
or in precepts or vows,
in that case, having adopted that one alone,
they see all others as inferior.

Those who are skilled say that, too, is a knot,
relying on which people see others as lesser.
That’s why a mendicant ought not rely
on what’s seen, heard, or thought,
or on precepts and vows.

Nor would they form a view about the world
through a notion or through precepts and vows.
They would never represent themselves as “equal”,
nor conceive themselves “worse” or “better”.

What was picked up has been set down
and is not grasped again;
they form no dependency even on notions.
They follow no side among the factions,
and believe in no view at all.

One here who has no wish for either end—
for any state of existence in this life or the next—
has adopted no dogma at all
after judging among the teachings.

For them not even the tiniest idea is formulated here
regarding what is seen, heard, or thought.
That brahmin does not grasp any view—
how could anyone in this world judge them?

They don’t make things up or promote them,
and don’t subscribe to any of the doctrines.
The brahmin has no need to be led by precept or vow;
gone to the far shore, one such does not return.

This sutta doesn’t promote anything, doesn’t mention right view anywhere, doesn’t mention “They use Right View skillfully without relying on it”, it doesn’t mention “True right view is one based on meditation” or any of these side-readings.

Although in a previous sutta:

One who knows, having comprehended the truth
through the knowledges,
does not visit various teachers, being of vast wisdom.

They are remote from all things
seen, heard, or thought.
Seeing them living openly,
how could anyone in this world judge them

They don’t make things up or promote them,
or speak of the uttermost purity.
After untying the tight knot of grasping
they long for nothing in the world.

So, perhaps there’s a difference between Vidvā ca vedehi samecca dhammaṁ and formulating opinions, notions, belief in views. :slight_smile:

The solution to “attachment to views” is not to have no views, but to have no attachments.

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Hi Dogen! I find this is an interesting question, but the Sammādiṭṭhisutta describes an arahant, who has right view.

A noble disciple understands in this way defilement, its origin, its cessation, and the practice that leads to its cessation. They’ve completely given up the underlying tendency to greed, got rid of the underlying tendency to repulsion, and eradicated the underlying tendency to the view and conceit ‘I am’. They’ve given up ignorance and given rise to knowledge, and make an end of suffering in this very life.
When they’ve done this, they’re defined as a noble disciple who has right view, whose view is correct, who has experiential confidence in the teaching, and has come to the true teaching

But surely the arahant is someone who already crossed the stream? Why would they have the need to abandon anything that has not already been abandoned? Unless by abandoning everything eventually you mean parinibbāna.

Lol, I’m going to be a bit cheeky here, Dogen. But I asked somebody to do a thorough study of the Attha, with certain principles in mind, to come to that conclusion. I guess you’ve already done that? :face_with_hand_over_mouth: :wink:

What I’m saying is, of course it’s not convincing! I know! :grin: Because I’m just asserting something very briefly without giving any much proof. It’s the conclusion I came to after reading the text, but I know I haven’t really supported it here (nor do I plan to for lack of time).

I’m happy to discuss it a bit further, though.

They abandoned everything in the sense of abandoning attachment to it, yes, as Ven Sujato points out. But that’s not what the no-view concept is about. That view basically claims you should have no views at all—which effectively means, to be frank, that you don’t know what’s right or wrong.

In Buddha-dhamma, no view is actually wrong view:

It’s when some ascetic or brahmin doesn’t truly understand what is skillful and what is unskillful. […] Whenever they’re asked a question, they resort to verbal flip-flops and endless flip-flops: ‘I don’t say it’s like this. I don’t say it’s like that. I don’t say it’s otherwise. I don’t say it’s not so. And I don’t deny it’s not so.’ (DN2)

If you do know what’s right and wrong, then that’s not “no view”. That is also called a view in the suttas, namely right view.

This right view then leads to even bigger confirmation of truth at enlightenment, which is called right knowledge. It is repeatedly said to be the outcome of the path. It is complete knowledge (and emotional acceptance) of the four noble truths. So it also is not a “no view”.

And by attaining this right knowledge, right view isn’t abandoned either:

“Mendicants, a mendicant who has three qualities has reached the ultimate end, the ultimate sanctuary from the yoke, the ultimate spiritual life, the ultimate goal. They are the best among gods and humans. What three? Right view, right knowledge, and right freedom. (AN3.145)

And what is a true person? It’s someone who has right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right immersion, right knowledge, and right freedom. This is called a true person. (AN4.206)

Yes it does. It promotes not arguing and not seeing others with their views as inferior. This means, as the sutta itself indicates, to abandon conceit. It doesn’t mean you let go of all views altogether, in the sense that you don’t know what’s right or wrong. You just don’t see right view as your personal view, that’s the point. That’s also why you don’t grasp at it.

It’s still a view, though.

Either way, like any sutta, especially verse, it has to be put in the proper context of others. That’s what I was doing by pointing out what it means to not be dependent on vows and precepts. You can’t isolate one set of eight verses and think it teaches us all we need to know.

I think we can take it for granted that whoever heard this teaching knew of the eightfold path, including right view, because that was part of the Buddha’s first sermon. Even if it wasn’t the first, there is no good reason to believe it was later than the Atthakavagga or that the listeners of the Atthakavagga were unaware of such a core doctrine as the eithfold path.

The whole sutta itself also presents a certain viewpoint, by the way. To say you shouldn’t argue over views, to not think you’re better, equal, or worse: that is itself a view.

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Exactly!
Being clueless is not the goal of Buddhism.

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I’m under the impression that the views the Buddha rejected were of a certain philosophical nature. When the Buddha says he has right view, i think he is co-opting the language of his rivals for his own purpose. The Right View to have then isn’t really a view at all. It’s just how things are.

Thank you, Venerable :pray:

The point on how spiritual traditions are a mosaic of gradually evolving discussion and dialogue is incredibly relevant. Context! So much of Buddhism is assuming that there is a kind of ‘Buddhist universe’ existing in a vacuum, rather than an unfolding conversation and exchange of concepts for the sake of a higher goal. We take our concepts too seriously!

That said, to push back some on a mostly irrelevant piece of your essay: The narrative that Madhyamaka is primarily a response to early Buddhism is one put forth by such brilliant and informative thinkers as Professor Kalupahana in his interpretations of the MMK.

Prof. Kalupahana was wrong though. At least in terms of details and his specific framing.

That’s what more knowledgable experts say, ancient and modern, as far as I’m aware. Maybe it’s true from a particular historical framework that Nāgārjuna was “righting” some wrong turns in the development of Buddhist thought. But that would be a framework beyond the motivations and intentions of Nāgārjuna himself: it would once again be putting a kind of “proto” or “movements of history” label on him and his ideas in terms of our own values and perspective.

I think your wording leaves this sufficiently open and clear. Nāgārjuna of course does respond to and engage with ideas from the early texts. But within the general theme of how Madhyamaka and EBT relate…

Nāgārjuna, as far as we can be reasonably certain, frequently cited or alluded to and built on Mahāyāna texts and concepts (as you say elsewhere in the essay). Did he think his interpretations were those of the original Buddha? Sure. But he very well may have thought certain scriptures outside the current consensus of EBTs were spoken by the Buddha. Given his ideas and references, it seems he was not on some “back to the roots” EBT movement. Rather, he was responding to other Buddhists and trying to establish common ground.

Those other Buddhists had Abhidharma concepts and a canon of EBTs — a shared heritage. We would expect nothing less than for him to use these and arguments from them for addressing his audience. This of course does not mean that his own views and relationship to Buddhism was more nuanced than the references in MMK. He very well could have used later texts as interpretive lenses for the earlier ones, and then tried to argue for the philosophical validity of those interpretations.

So many suttas address this, and outside of the Atthakavagga no less! They just don’t have catchy meters and decades of academics lauding them. People so often want to discover something new and hidden, and hardly appreciate the humbling produnfity of the old n’ repeated!

But just to quote one again, I feel that Ven. Ānanda answered the kind of childish retort to “view vs. no view” all those years ago in AN 10.93 :laughing:

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