SuttaCentral
I read this sutta Lovingkindness at 4th Jhana
thanks to @simhamukha
But brought to me a very Interesting insight. I wanted to share and learn other thoughts because this will benefit many of us. Because at the level of 4th Jhana there must be natural loving feeling. And for that reason Love can be then perfected by doing lovingkindness at that moment.
We are taught as if it’s a thing that is done only before Jhanas. But doing it at the level of 4th Jhana is very necessary for this age.
Why do you think that at the level of 4th jhana there is a natural loving feeling?
Must there be something like unconditional love? Does that mean love is the same as Nibbana?
By the way, for me the main message of the sutta you refer to is: whatever is constructed and volitionally produced, such as jhana and Brahma Vihara’s, can never be a real refuge and solution to suffering, because it all ends. It is not stable.
I see the whole sutta as a stimulus to stop wanting to experience this or that. A stimulus to give up craving in any form. That is the door to the deathless.
This sounds to me a bit complicated, and that might be because language is a function belonging to the left brain hemisphere and the false agent-person. Why not cross over directly to the right brain-hemisphere that is nonverbal and inclusive, with no person or false agent, just thinking and feeling here and now?
I don’t think that is correct mentality. Buddha said not to be afraid of formless jhanas. This forum can’t let us dialogue so easy. But there must be a reason why it’s metta is mentioned after the 4th. Even before the other jhanas. If we think based on text. 4th jhana is supposed to be neutral. Can you develop loving feeling with nuetral feeling?
Did the Buddha not have that kind of understanding at the beginning of his search that seeking for, or aiming for something that is impermanent, born, ceasing, is an ignoble search? Why looking for something like that? That the whole world does.
It was certainly not what he was looking for or aiming at. He left his teachers who introduced him in the most subtle arupa jhana’s. They were satisfied with it, but the Buddha realised that those states are impermanent and, therefor, cannot be the end of suffering. Such states which cease can never ever be a real refuge, protection, island, at most a nice abiding here and now.
Buddha was not searching for anything that is impermanent, born, decaying, ending, changing and was not giving up his search till he found the deathless.
I do not say ofcourse that jhana and brahma vihara are of no use but i belief it is a right mentallity not to hunt after certain experiences which do not last. That is, i belief, the opening of the Dhamma-eye.
Seeing that all which arises will also cease and is not really worth to hunt after.
I do not know if it is really possible to develop loving kindness in 4th jhana and maintain 4th jhana.
Well it depends how you understand unconditional love. Remove love. Then you have unconditional. Nibbana is unconditional. Because there exist love there is unconditional love. Buddha said liberation of the heart by loving-kindness. It’s a wholesome development. Aim for wholesome first when you are developing. When you are able to let go. That’s when you start to think like you do. It’s neccesary to see both worlds. Like someone that doesn’t see beauty in all can’t be disgusted by all to remove lust. So you need the opposite to see the ugliness in all.
I agree that one has to see both worlds, at least in the sense of the mundane path and noble Path (MN117). The mundane Path is connected with aiming at certain goals. It is connected to volition and expactations. It is connected with kamma, wholesome kamma. It can ripen as good experiences in this life and after this life. It does not lead, in a definite way, to liberate from samsara and suffering. It is still a bond.
I understand it this way that in a certain sense this mundane Path is still ego-centric. One expacts something in return. Doing good is not really without any ideas of rewards, or positive results for oneself. For example, one gives food to the monks because one thinks or beliefs that this will have positive results for oneself. In a sense it is not really good yet, in the sense of without aiming at any profit for oneself. It is not bad and ofcourse much better than doing wrong, but is also not really good-heartedness to do good aiming at ones own profit. That’s easy to see i find. If one aims at ones own profit ofcourse this can never ever be called really pure deeds.
Then there is the noble Path, supramundane. For me it differs because there is no aiming at ones own profit anymore. Whole heartely one does good. There is no hidden agenda. There is no idea of rewards.
For me this is uncondional.
Some mystics therefor also teach that one has to give up being a businessman in one’s actions and always concerned wit your own loss or profit.
You are wise my friend. When I say this might be the path to unconditional love. It’s not like it’s the mundane one. If we go try what this sutta says it might be the only we shall see what will happen. But let’s call it unconditional metta. You know why. Because at the state of 4th Jhana you are nuetral towards your feelings. So I believe this is the way of perfection of metta. That’s the correct way to see it then.
Because using metta as a practice even before jhanas is so mundane. What this sutta is saying is the supramundane metta that probably helps to progress further into jhanas.
I believe in metta even at the beginning. It helped me so much to progress further. I never saw it perfecting more. Meaning I seemed stuck. But this sounds really powerful. I hope we can try the instruction of this sutta one day. Thanks for chatting my friend. 
Thanks to you @Upasaka_Dhammasara,
AN1.515-574 …also teaches that …'one who follows the Teacher’s instructions, who responds to advice’…does also develop wisdom together with concentration (jhana) and also Brahma Vihara’s.
With regard to unconditional love i like to belief that when mind is cleansed totally, the heart is released and one has a natural love. But maybe this is too a romantic notion.
No my friend. You are right about that natural loving feeling. Actually from 1ste Jhana all the 4 Brahma viharas quality is just growing. That’s why it’s very important to start developing metta at the beginning already. Equanimity will one day grow further because you already impressed the mind by repeating the feeling that you want later. What is good in beginning is repeating the metta verses but once you start feeling them. Use the feelings only.
All the best! Nothing happens for no reason.
And it’s in Jhanas you need to let go of the experience to move on. I see you. 