MN1: approval is the root of suffering

Discussion
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Venerable @Sujato, just today I noticed a remarkable update to your translation of MN1.

scid: mn1:171.4
pli: ‘Nandī dukkhassa mūlan’ti—
ref: Because he has understood that approval is the root of suffering,
en: Because he has understood that approval is the root of suffering,

I would be very interested in reading an essay on your thoughts on this particular change given that the DPD shows a different meaning for “nandī” that is more in line with Venerable Bodhi’s own translation ("Because he has understood that delight is the root of suffering").

Your former translation I believed used “relishing” and the switch to “approval” is a remarkable change to a firmer position on this point, a firmer position a bit out of the compass of DPD definitions.

MN1 is a pivotal sutta and your change equally so for those of us who will need to reassess their understanding.

I did search D&D for any recent discussions on this but there is nothing I could find. Please forgive if I have missed a point you may already have addressed elsewhere.

Thank you,
:pray:

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Hi Karl,

Where Bhante’s comments about that passage helpful?

Here is the passage referred to:

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Although indeed helpful (thank you), it feels like the use of “approval” as a direct translation of “nandī” is a bit like someone choosing to drive just 5mph over the speed limit because 10mph over would be a traffic ticket.

To clarify, my confusion stems from reading the Golden Dictionary (DPD) definition of nandī which does not allow for anything in the realm of approval as I read it. The former interpretation as “relishing” can be understood as “choosing to wallow in a delight”, in the sense of “I allow/(approve) myself this pleasure”, but it is a bit of a stretch to translate this single word directly as “approval” since “approval” actually doesn’t allude to anything at all within the Pali definition of “nandī”. Notably, “relishing” stays strictly in the bounds of the current definition of “nandī”:

nandi 1 fem. pleasure; enjoyment; relish; delight ►
nandi 2 aor. was glad; found delight (in); liked; enjoyed ►
nandī 1 adj. who takes pleasure (in); who enjoys ►
nandī 2 fem. pleasure (in); enjoyment (in); delight (in) ►

Indeed, by translating MN1 using the word “approval” for nandī, Ven. Sujato has opened the door for the having all Pali dictionaries update their meanings to include “approval” in the scope of “nandī” and that has much broader scope indeed.

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“Nandī” is sometimes listed alongside “chanda”, “rāga”, “taṇhā” (e.g. SN 22.3), so it would seem to me that “delighting” (or something along the line of “embracing” or “enjoying”), which feels more charged, might fit better than “approval/approving”, which feels more neutral, no?

“approval is the root of suffering”
“But the mendicants did not approve what the Buddha said.”
vs.
“delight is the root of suffering”
“But the mendicants did not delight in what the Buddha said.”

I think the former would feel more confusing to a naïve reader or a non-native speaker – as one could read “approving” as “agreeing with” in a neutral, matter-of-fact way, when in this case it should probably be more in line with “approving with pleasure”.

Ven. Sujato’s note about that last line in MN 1 is worth mentioning:

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I absolute laughed out loud at the wonderful last line when I first read it in Ven. Bodhi’s translation. That last line has brought me much joy in its uncommon yet understandable departure from the norm. Who indeed would celebrate and approve the understanding that delight (Bodhi) is the root of suffering. And yet it is MN1 that drove me to study the suttas and bother you all as long as time permits.

Because he has understood that delight is the root of suffering, and that with being as condition there is birth, and that for whatever has come to be there is ageing and death. Therefore, bhikkhus, through the complete destruction, fading away, cessation, giving up, and relinquishing of cravings, the Tathāgata has awakened to supreme full enlightenment, I say.”

:heart:
:pray:

And Ven. Bodhi did not break any Pali dictionaries that I know of.

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May I humbly add my 2 cents here: in the “famous” triplet of infinitives abhinandituṃ, abhivadituṃ, ajjhosituṃ, it is the 2nd one, abhivadituṃ, which has the pronounced connotation of “approval” (literally, “to welcome”)

The canonical instance (MN 106, MN II 263,7):
yad aniccaṃ taṃ nālaṃ abhinandituṃ, nālaṃ abhivadituṃ, nālaṃ ajjhosituṃ.

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I don’t think you can use the DPD in that way. If you want to dig into definitions, you need to use a proper dictionary. That’s not what the DPD is for.

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Venerable, may we be directed to a proper dictionary as defined by the Sangha?

The PED does not use the word “approve”:

Nandi Nandi1 & (freq.) Nandī (f.) [Sk. nandi, but cp. BSk. nandī Divy 37] 1. joy, enjoyment, pleasure, delight in (c. loc.) S i.16, 39, 54; ii.101 sq. (āhāre); iii.14 (=upādāna); iv.36 sq.; A ii.10 (kāma˚, bhava˚, diṭṭhi˚), iii.246; iv.423 sq. (dhamma˚); Sn 1055 (+nivesana); Nd2 330 (=taṇhā); Pug 57; Dhs 1059≈(in def. of taṇhā); Vbh 145, 356, 361; DhsA 363; ThA 65, 167. — For nandī at Miln 289 read tandī. — 2. a musical instrument: joy-drum [Sk. nandī] Vin iii.108 (=vijayabheri). Cp. ā˚.
-(y)āvatta “turning auspiciously” (i. e. turning to the right: see dakkhiṇāvatta), auspicious, good Nett 2, 4, 7, 113 (always attr. of naya); -ûpasecana (rāgasalla) sprinkled over with joy, having joy as its sauce Nett 116, 117; cp. maŋsûpasecana (odana) J iii.144=vi.24; -kkhaya the destruction of (finding) delight S iii.51; -(ŋ)jaha giving up or abandoning joy Sn 1101 (+okañjaha & kappañjaha); Nd2 331; -bhava existence of joy, being full of joy, in ˚parikkhīṇa one in whom joy is extinct (i. e. an Arahant), expld however by Com. as one who has rid himself of the craving for rebirth (tīsu bhavesu parikkhīnataṇha DhA iv.192=SnA 469) S i.2, 53; Sn 175, 637=Dh 413; -mukhī (adj.-f.) “joyfaced,” showing a merry face, Ep. of the night (esp. the eve of the uposatha) Vin i.288 (ratti); ii.236 (id.); -rāga pleasure & lust, passionate delight S ii.227; iii.51; iv.142, 174, 180; M i.145; Dhs 1059≈, 1136; esp. as attr. of taṇhā in phrase n-r-sahagata-taṇhā (cp. M Vastu iii.332: nandīrāgasahagatā tr̥ṣṇā) Vin i.10; S iii.158; v.425 sq.; Ps ii.137; Nett 72; -saŋyojana the fetter of finding delight in anything Sn 1109, 1115; Nd2 332; -samudaya the rise or origin of delight M iii.267.

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Something like Cone’s DOP or even the PED. I believe the definitions in the DPD are just intended to be concise and for the basic purpose of understanding the split up compounds. It’s not wrong, but just because in the very brief definition given a particular sense is not found, that doesn’t mean it’s not possible.

But others like Bhante Sujato or @johnk or @stephen would be much better positioned than me to comment on the DPD.

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Is indeed the best dictionary at the moment. And Cone agrees with Lew:

1nandi, nandī

f. [S. nandi, nāndī], joy, enjoyment, pleasure, delight;

The rest of the entry: examples, compounds, etc

Abh 87 (santoso ~i sammado); M I 6,11 (~i dukkhassa mūlan ti, Ce, Se so; Be, Ee ~ī); 266,32 (yā vedanāsu ~i tad upādānaṃ, Se so; Be, Ce, Ee ~ī); III 32,18 (yo chando yo rāgo yā ~i yā taṇhā, Ce, Se so; Be, Ee ~ī); 188,2 (evarūpo ahosiṃ atītaṃ addhānan ti tattha ~iṃ samanvāneti); S I 54,20* (kacci tvaṃ anigho bhikkhu atho ~i na vijjati, Ce, Se so; Be, Ee ~ī); IV 36,7 (~iyā sati sārāgo hoti); Sn 1055 (etesu ~iṃ ca nivesanaṃ ca panujja); Thī 59 (sabbattha vihatā ~i tamokkhandho padālito, Ee, Se so; Be, Ce ~ī); Ja IV 396,27* (tattha kā ~i kā khiḍḍā kā rati kā dhanesanā); VI 56,27* (missaṃ ~īhi gacchantaṃ); 541,25* (~iyo mābhikīrare; 541,28´ : maṃ somanassāni abhikīranti); Paṭis I 58,5 (nibbindanto ~iṃ pajahati; Paṭis-a 259,23 : ~in ti sappītikaṃ taṇhaṃ); Dhs 1059 (yo rāgo sārāgo anunayo anurodho ~i nandī-rāgo cittassa sārāgo, Ce so; Be, Ee, Se ~ī; As 362,29 foll. : yattha katthaci bhave sattā etāya nandanti sayaṃ vā nandatī ti ~ī … ekasmiṃ ārammaṇe sakiṃ uppannā taṇhā ~ī punappuna uppajjamānā nandīrāgo ti vuccati); Vism 289,31 (nibbidānupassanāya ~ito … cittaṃ mocento); Spk II 262,2 (balavapatthanāsaṅkhātā ~ī); Pj II 215,1 (tatratatrābhinandinitaṇhāsaṅkhātāya ~iyā); Sadd 921,24 (tatra mattābhedo tāva … ~i ~ī); — 2. a drum announcing or accompanying proclamations; Vin III 108,30 (rājā … Licchaviyo parājesi saṅgāme ca ~i carati raññā Licchavī pabhaggā ti; Sp 513,1 : vijayabheri āhiṇḍati); Ja VI 156,33* (~i ppavesi nagaraṃ bandhana-mokkho aghosittha, Ce, Ee so; Be ~iṃ pavesi; Se nandippavesanagaraṃ; 157,8´ foll. : ānandabheri cari, kiṃ vatvā ti … sabbe bandhanā muccantū ti, Be, Ce so; Ee ānandabheriṃ ācariṃsu … sabbe bandhanāni muñcantū ti; Se ānandabheriṃ cariṃsu, kimatthāya …sabbe bandhanāni muñcantū ti) ≠ 592,34* (Ce, Ee, Se nandi ppavesi nagare; Be nandiṃ pavesi nagare; 593,4´ : Vessantarassa mahārājassa āṇā ti nagare nandibherī cari, Be so; Ce bherī cari; Ee bheriṃ cari; Se nandibheriṃ cari); — 3. a kind of auspicious vessel (or conch); Sv 445,30 (satti sirivaccho ~i sovatthiko vaṭaṃsako …; Sv-pṭ II 47,12 : ~ī ti dakkhiṇāvattaṃ) = Ps III 375,12; — see also nandiyāvaṭṭa below; — nandi is a common wr in Ee (and Ce) for naddhi (or nandhi); — °-y-āvaṭṭa, nandiyāvatta, m. [cf S. nandyāvarta, BHS nandikāvarta], 1. a kind of auspicious vessel; Sp 75,11 (pahiṇi … abhisekatthāya bahuvidhaṃ paṇṇākāraṃ seyyathīdaṃ saṅkhaṃ gaṅgodakaṃ … bhiṅkāraṃ ~aṃ sivikaṃ …; Sp-ṭ [Be] I 162,12 : ~an ti kākapadasaṇṭhānā maṅgalatthaṃ katā suvaṇṇabhājanavikati); — see also nandi meaning 3. above; — 2. a kind of large fish; Mp II 36,8 (nāvā … ~-macchapiṭṭhen’ eva gatā; Mp-ṭ III 47,14 : kujjakakulisakamacchasaṅghātapiṭṭhen’ eva); — 3. the name of a guide-line or stategy for interpretation; (see Ñāṇamoli, 1962, p. xlii, ‘Conversion of Relishing’); Peṭ 3,18 (pañca nayā, nandiyāvatto tipukkhalo …) = Nett 2,9; Peṭ 256,1 (nandiyāvatto … catūhi dhammehi neti avijjāya ca taṇhāya ca samathena ca vipassanāya ca); Nett 7,28 (ye samathapubbaṅgamāhi paṭipadāhi niyyanti te nandiyāvattena nayena hātabbā); 113,17 (ariyā catukkamaggaṃ paññāpenti … nandiyā bhavataṇhāya āvattanatthaṃ, ayaṃ vuccati nandiyāvattassa nayassa bhūmī ti); — °’-ūpasecana, mfn., with a sauce or infusion of enjoying; D III 228,8 (viññāṇaṃ … rūpapatiṭṭhaṃ ~aṃ … vepullaṃ āpajjeyya, Be, Ce so; Ee °’-ūpavesanaṃ; Se °’-ūpasevanaṃ; Sv 1021,13 : ~an ti lobhasahagataṃ sampayuttāya nandiyā va upasittaṃ hutvā, Be, Ce, Se so; Ee °’-ūpavesanan ti) = S III 53,11 (Be, Ce so; Ee °’-upasevanaṃ; Se °’-ūpasevanaṃ) quoted Nidd I 25,8 (Be, Ce so; Ee, Se °’-ūpasevanaṃ; Nidd-a I 96,2 : ~an ti sappītikataṇhodakena āsittaṃ viññaṇaṃ, Be, Se so; Ce, Ee °’-ūpasevanan ti); Nett 116,34 (~ena viññāṇena); — °-janana, mfn., producing joy; Ap 45,9 (Sakyānaṃ ~o kappako); 318,20; — °ṃ-jaha, mfn., abandoning enjoying; Sn 1101 (~aṃ oghatiṇṇaṃ vimuttaṃ; Pj II 598,30 : anāgata-rūpādipatthanājahaṃ); — °-bherī, f., a drum announcing or accompanying proclamations; Ja VI 593,4´ (Vessantarassa mahārājassa āṇā ti nagare ~ī cari, Be so; Ce bherī; Ee bheriṃ; Se ~iṃ); Cp-a 100,30 (nagare ca ~iṃ carāpesuṃ); — °-mukhī, (m) f (n). [cf S. nāndīmukha; BHSD sv nandīmukhā: ‘ just before the beating of the (morning) drum ’], bright-faced;? — ~ī ratti, daybreak; Vin I 288,12 (nikkhante pacchime yāme uddhate aruṇe ~iyā rattiyā) ≠ II 236,17 (Sp 1287,4 : aruṇuṭṭhitakāle pītimukhā viya ratti khāyati) ≠ A IV 205,9 (Mp IV 112,12 : ~iyā ti tuṭṭhamukhiyā) ≠ Ud 27,6 (Ud-a 186,31 foll. : aruṇappabhāya … satte nandāpana-mukhiyā viya rattiyā jātāya, vibhāsamānāyā ti attho); — °-vaṭṭaka, n. [= nandiyāvaṭṭa qv above], a kind of auspicious vessel; Sp 75,16* (bhiṅkāraṃ ~aṃ); — °-samanvānayanā, f., the continuing, producing, of enjoying; Ps V 3,22 (taṇhādiṭṭhippavattanāsaṅkhātā ~ā); — sunandighosa, mfn. [cf BHS nandighoṣa, AMg ṇandighosa], making a delightful noise;; None; Vv 64:3 (ratho … ~o; Vv-a 276,17 foll. : ~o ti suṭṭhu nanditabba-ghoso … ~o ti vā suṭṭhu katanandighoso … katapamoda-ninnādo ti attho); — sunandī in Ee at S II 53,9 foll. : read vedanāsu nandī with Be, Ce, Se.

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My god, could someone please offer her a big box of carriage returns. I find that wall of text overwhelming.

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I assume they were focused on keeping the number of physical pages manageable

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One interesting thing about MN1, if you interpret the various states not as meditational states but epistemological positions, you get a conclusive theory of knowledge worthy of Kant.

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“They perceive earth as earth” (MN1)

Sujato comments:

"Although their perception (saññā) is accurate, to perceive something “as” something is to recognize it filtered through memory and concepts learned in the past, a subtle pre-processing that interprets present experience in light of expectations and desires"

If this is true, why would we say that their perception is accurate? If the brain/mind fills in based upon past, how can we know that this is filled in accurate? What is exactly accurate about filling in? Is there a right way that the mind of brain interprets?

If the human brain fills in an object as green, and penetrable but an animal does not, what is accurate in all this? If we accepts that perceptions and the way we know things is merely an interpretation of brain or mind, i feel, it is also not wise anymore to discuss what is accurate.
In Tibetan Buddhism they say, what is wise about debating/discussing which dream is true?

Why would we even speak of direct knowledge if in fact nothing is directly known but always loaded with the past and merely an interpretation based upon our disposition, human bhava?

If it is like this, and maybe it is, is directly perceiving and knowing not an illusion? Our human pretention? Our lack of understanding that all for -us is also merely always interpretation?

About delight or approval. I believe, our lifes are always lived on differents levels at the same time. And when one has a conscious delight in something, at the same time on another level one has also aversion to other things. So, feeding that delight is also feeding the aversion. Delight and aversion are always together, like approval and disapproval of certain experiences or states. And this constant judging of experiences or states, i believe, lies at the root of suffering.
So feeding delight is also feeding aversion. There lies the problem. Delight is a nice feeling, but at the same time, feeding delight in this or that, one also feeds aversion towards other things.

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In similar contexts, namely where we are considering an audience’s response to what was said, nand has the sense of not just an emotional enjoyment of the statement, but cognitive assent to it as well. Eg. MN 136:

Atha kho potaliputto paribbājako āyasmato samiddhissa bhāsitaṁ neva abhinandi nappaṭikkosi anabhinanditvā appaṭikkositvā uṭṭhāyāsanā pakkāmi.
Then, neither approving nor dismissing Samiddhi’s statement, Potaliputta got up from his seat and left.

To “approve” something conveys these twin senses of emotional enjoyment and cognitive assent.

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That doesn’t appear as a slam-dunk example to me because: 1) abhinandati is a different word and 2) this sentence is sensible as “…neither overly-delighting in nor rejecting…”

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As a non-native speaker, the aspect of emotional enjoyment is rather new to me, and I also can’t derive it from dictionaries. In that sense, I approve of @karl_lew’s perspective; although I find the point that you are making with MN1 convincing. How about “approve happily” or something such for more clarity?

For that end-of-sutta formula I have been using “begrüßen” in German which does indeed convey this double sense of accepting something with an emotional enjoyment. I just haven’t used it in MN1 so far.

And by the way, in DN29:21.4 I find “applaud and cheer” for abhinanditabbaṁ anumoditabbaṁ.

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Thank you Bhante for the clarification. Though I see your intent there, to me the passage: “Because he has understood that approval is the root of suffering,” feels more like a dry process, sort of like a government bureaucrat approving paperwork.
Based on your explanation, I would perhaps read the line as something like “Because he has understood that enjoyment and its approval are the root of suffering,…”

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I learned personally that relishing/desire/delight is the root of suffering because my wife taught me that. It took her decades and she is a very patient, kind and loving person. My wife taught me the difference between love and relishing/desire/delight. Love is open-hearted. Relishing/desire/delight are not.

And because I was taught this wisdom the through the words of another (my wife), when I later read the Buddha’s words translated by a wise men into English as “relishing/desire/delight is the root of suffering”, I thought to myself, “The Buddha is as at least as wise as my wife”.

And when I read “the monks did not approve”, I laughed. And I laughed because I knew right then and there that the Buddha was wiser than I. I laughed because it took me decades to understand and approve what my wife had taught me. I laughed so hard that I thought to myself, “This Buddha guy is amazing! I really must read more.”

And for this reason I have unit tests that verify "desire is the root of suffering". Those unit tests have been there for years. They have been there for years because it is MN1 that made me start reading a certain Venerable’s wonderful translations.

I won’t change the unit tests. They remain true to my heart and speak to my personal experience.

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Thanks, use “express approval and appreciation”.

These phrases, as this exemplifies, imply the outward expression of one’s agreement and approval of something. We should in fact probably say that the monastics at the end of a discourse “applaud”, except that evokes the image of monastics breaking out with clapping. Probably they raised their hands and said “sadhu!” or something of the sort.

Words from root nand span a considerable semantic distance, from desire to enjoyment to approval. It’s not always necessary or desirable to maintain consistency in every context, but in a text such as MN 1 it is clearly crucial to the whole discourse.

The whole thing is not just about our liking or desires, but about how our ideas are driven by what we like. As the final element in the main pericope, nand performs exactly the same role that the nand of the monastics does at the end of the sutta: they like, they agree with it, they adopt it and assent to it.

In this way nand is similar to khanti, which means “acceptance” (of a view), and is closely related to terms for “liking” and “preference”. In English the same sense is common as well, for example, consider “agree” (= assent to) and “agreeable” (= pleasant).

From that page:

APPROVE, ENDORSE, SANCTION, ACCREDIT, CERTIFY mean to have or express a favorable opinion of.
APPROVE often implies no more than this but may suggest considerable esteem or admiration.

This is exactly the sense that I am setting out to convey.

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