From a common sense standpoint, I wonder how this translation works best when vicara and Vitakka are “placing the mind and keeping it there” as opposed to “sustained and discursive thinking”?
How many processes are there?”
“There are these three processes. Physical, verbal, and mental processes.”
“But ma’am, what is the physical process? What’s the verbal process? What’s the mental process?”
“Breathing is a physical process. Placing the mind and keeping it connected are verbal processes. Perception and feeling are mental processes.”
Also. Is it possible that jhana # 1 can be entered before abandoning the first hinderance?
“The underlying tendency to greed should be given up when it comes to pleasant feeling. The underlying tendency to repulsion should be given up when it comes to painful feeling. The underlying tendency to ignorance should be given up when it comes to neutral feeling.”
“Should these underlying tendencies be given up regarding all instances of these feelings?”
“No, not in all instances. Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. With this they give up greed, and the underlying tendency to greed does not lie within that.
The above seems to indicate it is possible.
Maybe it’s a process on a scale between overcoming nivarana and catching mental blemishes as greed? Maybe it’s not zero-one’s?
Hi. The quote you posted is not clear to me however it seems to say there is no underlying greed in relation to the pleasant feelings of jhana therefore there is no need to be concerned about giving up greed in jhana because it has already gone.
Hi. In my opinion. Sujato’s translation is reasonable because for a Buddha to speak there must be vitakka & vicara. I think it is not accurate to call the thought processes of a Buddha when speaking as “discursive”.
I think an alternative translation here is “initial thought (vitakka)” & “sustained thought (vicara)”.
This is a matter of different emphases between the Sujato and Thanissaro versions:
"“Is passion-obsession to be abandoned with regard to all pleasant feeling? Is resistance-obsession to be abandoned with regard to all painful feeling? Is ignorance-obsession to be abandoned with regard to all neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling?”
" “No… There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With that he abandons passion. No passion-obsession gets obsessed there. There is the case where a monk considers, ‘O when will I enter & remain in the dimension that those who are noble now enter & remain in?’ And as he thus nurses this yearning for the unexcelled liberations, there arises within him sorrow based on that yearning. With that he abandons resistance. No resistance-obsession gets obsessed there. There is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. With that he abandons ignorance. No ignorance-obsession gets obsessed there.”"
The Sujato adds a line out of the air to make the sutta conform with the difference between a stream-winner and higher states in the fetters (" With this they give up greed, and the underlying tendency to greed does not lie within that.).
Thanissaro maintains the sense of the passage which is to show not all obsession is abandoned. Pleasant feeling not-of-the-flesh and painful feeling not-of-the-flesh (achieved in Satipatthana second foundation) are essential in replacing former attachment to sensuality.
" “Even though a disciple of the noble ones has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, still — if he has not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that — he can be tempted by sensuality. But when he has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and he has attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, he cannot be tempted by sensuality.”—Majhima Nikaya 14
•This also illustrates how insight is not complete as a strategy without tranquillity experienced in the body, and that a two-pronged attack from different angles is necessary in eradicating defilements.
@paul1 - Thank you. That is clear. This is not mundane sensual pleasure for which greed is abandoned. It is not-of-this-flesh pleasure? That is the point?