Mundane right view not needed for enlightenment? Or needed? Discussion spark

Discussion
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From: Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty

"Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one’s right view. And what is wrong view? ‘There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no contemplatives or brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.’ This is wrong view.

"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming]; there is right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? ‘There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.’ This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.

"And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view[1] in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

We know that having wrong view leads to wrong liberation, so the opposite of those wrong views, here I shorten it as mundane right views are needed basically when you reject wrong view, you get right views.

Yet, the mundane right views are described as with effluents (waste), siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions (of becoming/ leading to rebirth).

And the supramundane right views doesn’t seem to mention kamma and rebirth.

So can secular Buddhists somehow use this as an sort of escape route? As long as they don’t commit to rejecting rebirth and kamma (so no adherence to wrong views), could they just by using supramundane right views attain to stream winner?

To be clear, I am not talking about after stream winner attainment, but before.

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Supra mundane right view as a factor of the path is the first factor which is right view samma ditthi. It is the knowledge of the four noble truths and as such it is about kamma and rebirth.

Therefore IMO secular Buddhists cannot use it as an escape route because the right view with effluents sides with merits and acquisitions. This means that they are going to be reborn in accordance with the meritorious deeds they perform.

IMO this is impossible because they cannot get rid of the first three fetters as long as they perform meritorious deeds on the assumption of a self as the one who performs them.
With Metta

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Right view is only one aspect of the path and a mental one, making the OP question typical of the millennial mentality (a global phenomenon), where mind pursuits are favoured above direct involvement in life, as if people had minds but no bodies as in the formless realm. However the Noble Eightfold Path demands physical as well as mental action, and the sila path factors spell that out. They are based on the purposive direction of the second path factor, right resolve:

"And what is the right resolve with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? Resolve for renunciation, resolve for freedom from ill will, resolve for harmlessness. This is the right resolve with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.”—-MN 117

So one cannot progress to attainment of transcendent right view without implementing the demands of mundane right resolve, which are aimed at removing two of the three unwholesome roots, greed and hatred, which is a spiritual acquisition (‘effluents’ means an ongoing process where some of the roots remain). The third root ignorance, is removed by development of right view. In transcendent right view this is a process of investigation of phenomena and development of the faculty of discernment through the agencies of right effort and right mindfulness. (In this case a previously held ‘right view’ would be classed as a ‘wrong view’):

"One makes an effort for the abandoning of wrong view & for entering into right view: This is one’s right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one’s right mindfulness.[2] Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view.”—-MN 117

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I am writing Physics and Buddhism book, most likely will be read by secular Buddhists, so I wanna make sure that my traditional understanding is right. I agree, right view would includes 4 Noble truths, which implies kamma and rebirth.

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The story of Ven. Angulimala might be relevant, who attained Arahanthood (supramundane right view) and still experienced the fruits of his past kamma.

Then Ven. Angulimala, dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: “Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world.” And thus Ven. Angulimala became another one of the arahants.

Then Ven. Angulimala, early in the morning, having put on his robes and carrying his outer robe & bowl, went into Savatthi for alms. Now at that time a clod thrown by one person hit Ven. Angulimala on the body, a stone thrown by another person hit him on the body, and a potsherd thrown by still another person hit him on the body. So Ven. Angulimala — his head broken open and dripping with blood, his bowl broken, and his outer robe ripped to shreds — went to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him coming from afar and on seeing him said to him: “Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!”

So, mundane right view is definitely needed if one wants to avoid reaping the fruits of unwholesome past actions. However, before the attainment of supramundane right view, believing in it obviously has an important function in the practice.

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My guess is that it is required but not quite as strongly as the texts seem to imply.

The core of mundane right view seems to me what one might call “a spiritual outlook”: one that is open to our actions having effects in line with their ethical dimension, and which sees value and potential in cultivation. It’s hard to imagine someone bothering with meditation for long without this basic attitude. If your goal is to chase another high (for example), you’ll probably give up on meditation long before you get to the juicy, stream entry stuff.

Now, I think there are plenty of “humanists” and “secular Buddhists” and “agnostics” etc who nonetheless do have the right attitude. Even if they’re not convinced about e.g. rebirth, I don’t see that as a deal breaker r.e. stream entry… so long as they aren’t dogmatically “YOLO” either.

For example, when I was living in NYC there was a secular meditation group that was firmly YOLO in attitude… eventually they started hosting “Mindful Mixers” where yuppies could consume intoxicants and flirt with each other “mindfully.” :face_with_raised_eyebrow: I don’t think these events produced any sotāpannas :joy: But there are plenty of stories of inquisitive, honest agnostics achieving extraordinary results on real retreats by following the instructions diligently and remaining open to the possibilities.

I hope that helps answer your question :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

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This is what MN 60 says about those lacking mundane right view:

Now, householders, of those contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view—’There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no contemplatives or brahmans who, faring rightly and practicing rightly, proclaim this world and the next after having directly known and realized it for themselves’—it can be expected that, shunning these three skillful activities—good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, good mental conduct—they will adopt & practice these three unskillful activities: bad bodily conduct, bad verbal conduct, bad mental conduct. Why is that? Because those venerable contemplatives & brahmans do not see, in unskillful activities, the drawbacks, the degradation, and the defilement; nor in skillful activities the rewards of renunciation, resembling cleansing.

It sounds like mundane right view is necessary to discern which actions are skillful, and also the benefits of renunciation, both of which seem essential to the path. But perhaps even if a person doesn’t believe in rebirth or have an understanding of kamma they can still be well-enough resolved toward skillful action that they “meet the requirements,” so to speak. I’m just speculating. I think it’s a very interesting question.

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