Nāmarūpa as one nidāna

Venerables & friends,

I was wondering why nāmarūpa is taught as one nidāna in paṭiccasamuppāda instead of two separate nidānas considering that in SN12.2 each is defined separately:

Feeling, perception, intention, contact, and application of mind.
Vedanā, saññā, cetanā, phasso, manasikāro
This is called name.
idaṁ vuccati nāmaṁ.
The four primary elements, and form derived from the four primary elements.
Cattāro ca mahābhūtā, catunnañca mahābhūtānaṁ upādāyarūpaṁ.
This is called form.
Idaṁ vuccati rūpaṁ.
Such is name and such is form.
Iti idañca nāmaṁ, idañca rūpaṁ.
These are called name and form.
Idaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, nāmarūpaṁ.

As both can be analyzed separately, the links would read as the following:

viññāṇapaccayā nāma
nāmapaccayā rūpaṁ
rūpapaccayā saḷāyatanaṁ

As a teaching on conditionality, having one without the other is not possible, which applies to all links, so what justifies combining two analyzable conditions into one link?

Thank you

The nama immediately affects the rupa. If the nama has a sensual intention, the rupa will be immediately aroused in a sensual way. Also the rupa can immediately affect the nama. If the breathing of the rupa changes, the feeling & state of the nama will immediately change.

Hello,

Would you kindly provide the source for this teaching? Thank you.

Hello Mkoll,

Was your question directed at me or at the discussant Rabbit?

IMO, Nāmarūpa refers to the sum of the aggregates. This would explain why nāma and rūpa are represented as a single nidāna in Dependent Origination.

Most of the time, mentality and corporeality arise together, with beings possessing all five aggregates, except in these exceptional cases:

  • The non-perceptive Asañña Brahmas are beings with only one aggregate. They have corporeality (rūpa) but lack mentality (feeling, perception, consciousness, and fabrications).
  • Beings born in the formless realms (arūpa-lōka), as in the spheres of infinite-space, infinite-consciousness, Nothingness and NPNNP, they have mentality but no corporeality.

These conditions are temporary, and with the death of these beings they are reborn with the usual five-aggregates configuration.

Thank you for your input. I am not sure sensual intention affects rupa in the way you mentioned. For example, we cannot simply intend water to be fire or vice versa. We know water to be water and fire to be fire through naming rupa.

There are also other indications how nāmarūpa can form two nidānas. For example:

Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact

The above teachings say the meeting of the three, not the meeting of the two. Even the sheathes of reed simile in SN12.67, it is said:

Suppose there were two bundles of reeds leaning up against each other.
Seyyathāpi, āvuso, dve naḷakalāpiyo aññamaññaṁ nissāya tiṭṭheyyuṁ.

It came to my attention that in the Chinese Agama, it is mentioned that three leaning against each other:

Your post made me think that the five aggregates themselves are made possible via nāmarūpa being essential for vibhanga. Otherwise, what is the point of aggregating five components for us then to differentiate them as “with clinging” or “without clinging”.

Having nāmarūpa leaning against vi-ññana makes bhanga nana impossible. Even when we look at a corpse decaying before our eyes, that would not constitute bhanga nana but rather nāma-rūpa-viññana in operation.

If the nama has sexual thoughts, the blood immediately flows & the physical sexual organs change their form. If nama thinks about delicious food, the tongue starts to salivate. The nama and rupa cannot be separated.

This is Hinduism and not the meaning of the SN 12.2 you quoted. Knowing is not naming. I am not interested in any quotes from Nanananda. Thanks

SN12.2 presents analyzability as the criterion for each nidāna with nāmarūpa being the only exception. This paves the way for further analysis of each component. Take MN140 as an example:

“What, bhikkhu, is the earth element? The earth element may be either internal or external. What is the internal earth element? Whatever internally, belonging to oneself, is solid, solidified, and clung-to, that is, head-hairs, body-hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, bone-marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, diaphragm, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, contents of the stomach, feces, or whatever else internally, belonging to oneself, is solid, solidified, and clung-to: this is called the internal earth element. Now both the internal earth element and the external earth element are simply earth element. And that should be seen as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ When one sees it thus as it actually is with proper wisdom, one becomes disenchanted with the earth element and makes the mind dispassionate towards the earth element.

The above has little to do with the swelling of sexual organs or with salivation. Ideally, it has to do with faith that the teachings are well explained (svākkhāto bhagavatā dhammo) by the Tathāgata, which makes it having little to do with Hinduism (āloko udapādi - unlearned from another). In MN77, it is demonstrated that rūpa can be without nāma against your assertion:

Furthermore, I have explained to my disciples a practice that they use to create from this body another body—formed, mind-made, whole in its major and minor limbs, not deficient in any faculty.
Puna caparaṁ, udāyi, akkhātā mayā sāvakānaṁ paṭipadā, yathāpaṭipannā me sāvakā imamhā kāyā aññaṁ kāyaṁ abhinimminanti rūpiṁ manomayaṁ sabbaṅgapaccaṅgiṁ ahīnindriyaṁ.
Suppose a person was to draw a reed out from its sheath.
Seyyathāpi, udāyi, puriso muñjamhā īsikaṁ pabbāheyya;
They’d think:
tassa evamassa:
‘This is the reed, this is the sheath. The reed and the sheath are different things. The reed has been drawn out from the sheath.’
‘ayaṁ muñjo, ayaṁ īsikā; añño muñjo, aññā īsikā; muñjamhā tveva īsikā pabbāḷhā’ti.

To acknowledge that nāmarūpa can be presented as two nidānas rather than one would allow for proper investigation as to why the Buddha taught it as such instead of being compelled to do so, considering that paṭiccasamuppāda is a wrong path, beginning with avijjā and ending in jarāmaraṇaṁ, so what harm would it make to demonstrate it as 13 links instead of 12?

Again, in MN77 we read:

Furthermore, my disciples esteem me for my excellent knowledge and vision:
Puna caparaṁ, udāyi, mamaṁ sāvakā abhikkante ñāṇadassane sambhāventi:
‘The ascetic Gotama only claims to know when he does in fact know.
jānaṁyevāha samaṇo gotamo—jānāmīti,
He only claims to see when he really does see.
passaṁyevāha samaṇo gotamo—passāmīti;
He teaches based on direct knowledge, not without direct knowledge.
abhiññāya samaṇo gotamo dhammaṁ deseti no anabhiññāya;
He teaches based on reason, not without reason.
sanidānaṁ samaṇo gotamo dhammaṁ deseti no anidānaṁ;
He teaches with a demonstrable basis, not without it.’
sappāṭihāriyaṁ samaṇo gotamo dhammaṁ deseti no appāṭihāriyan’ti.

Do you still think that the swelling of sexual organs and salivating for food are his reasons to proclaim nāmarūpa as one nidāna rather than two?

In this discussion, we should not forget that the Five Aggregates are represented in different ways at various points in the DO chain. It’s not a “one khandha, one nidāna” structure. Some nidānas contain nāma components, others contain rūpa components, and some have a mix of both.

The description of DO is linear to facilitate comprehension and memorization, but the links can interact with each other in complex and non-linear ways. For example, Ignorance is placed at the beginning of the chain, yet Craving needs Ignorance to arise. This image is quite illustrative.

I agree with the three-life explanation of DO, but I also find some other interpretations valid. One valid model of explanation does not necessarily exclude others.

The explanation of the mind affecting the body makes sense to me. Changes in the citta (another word for “mind”) can indeed influence bodily activity. Hypersalivation before a meal is one common example of this.

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SN 12.2 does not describe naming. Feeling, perception, intention, contact, and application of mind are not naming.

I did not locate the word “rupa” (as the four elements) in this quote. This quote only says a mind-mind kaya is either formed or has shape or form. The dictionary says rūpiṁ is an adjective.

The Buddha taught it as one & not as two. It is the teaching of it as one that requires investigation. What the nama intends immediately affects the rupa. If namarupa was naming the form, contact would occur before the naming. It would be rupa>nama instead of nama>rupa. It would be: Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). Nama is described in SN 12.2 as intention & application of mind. Nama is naming in Hinduism.

Beings of Rūpa-Lōkā, or Form Realms (Brāhmas) are described in some suttas as “mind-made deities” or "deities with a mind-bade body. Their bodies, although mind-made, are a kind of rūpa too.

The non-linear interconnection between different nidānas is rarely acknowledged, and would pave the way for phonological, numerological and mythical relationships - without overemphasizing the “logical” that relies on sequence. In other words, jāti loves sequence whereas gati loves coincidences that give rise to meaning. For example, jāti precedes jarāmaraṇaṁ but we do not find the Buddha recommending birth control as the ultimate solution to end suffering, even though it is more straightforward than delving into non-linearity.

Phonologically, there seems to be a link between nāmarūpa and jarāmaraṇaṁ in the sense that death is given a name (mara) - who is a deva that is believed to have high degree of control over kama loka.

“What oppresses everything?
What is nothing bigger than?
What is the one thing
hat has everything under its sway?”
“Name oppresses everything.
Nothing’s bigger than name.
Name is the one thing
that has everything under its sway.”

When the power of naming is acknowledged, the creativity of humans is simply the ability to breakdown a perceived whole into its constituents parts and rearranging them - which is the essence of vibhaṅga. In this context, numerology appears to be less distractive:

What do these five faculties, with their different domains and ranges, have recourse to? What experiences their domains and ranges?”
“These five faculties, with their different domains and ranges, have recourse to the mind. And the mind experiences their domains and ranges.”

While the above is taught in terms of the five faculties, a numerological approach would present the underlying regularity as “the five have recourse to the sixth”, which applies to the khandas. One could say that the five khandas have their recourse to clinging as the sixth, or the five senses (absence mano) have their recourse to mara. In terms of kamma and rebirth, the five sense have their recourse to mano (or mara/the sixth) coincides with how he is described - enjoying the creations of others. It also explains the gratifications and drawbacks of sensuality: mara does not mind rewarding beings with higher echelons in kama loka.

Having nāmarūpa as one nidāna allows for paṭiccasamuppāda to be presented into a twelve links model, a number that appears to be key in Abrahamic patriarchy. There are twelve patriarchs of Israel, twelve patriarchs of Ishmael, and twelve apostles of Jesus. The relationship between the fourth and the twelfths persists in their respective mythology: there has been a special relationship between Judah (the fourth) and Benjamin (the twelfth) making these two tribes a separate kingdom from the other ten. Also from the forth Judah comes the lineage of Jesus, where his twelfth disciple (having the same name) is said to have betrayed him. In Islam, the fourth Khalifa (Ali) will have twelve of his own (constituting his own lineage), where the twelfth Imam will appear with the resurrection of Jesus and settles the score with the Jews.

One could argue that salivating for food coincides with having solid food as the first ahara that beings rely upon - which is inline with Abrahamic myth that Mara caused their descended to earth. The swelling of sexual organs (phonologically) is what makes a purisa a superior state (where sakka - a name - is the first stage) even though it does not necessarily translate into sappurisa. Avoiding these became a driver for goal making by some through attaining the Jhanas.

Describing dynamics in a way of myth makes people opt for jati rather than gati to explain their activities and what motivates their actions. Sequence in a way rationalizes human activity by giving what drives them the name of a myth.

SN12.2 is titled Vibhaṅgasutta, which is concerned with analyzing each link as a “whole” that is breakable into parts/constituents. That does not make nāma less of a whole that have different characteristics from its components, or as Aristotle once said: the whole is greater than sum of its parts. This gives rise to two kinds of logical fallacies: the fallacy of division and the fallacy of composition.

So, the regularities that are presented in each nidāna that it contained a whole that is breakable to different parts, except for nāmarūpa which included two - hence the question why.

I did not locate the word “rupa” (as the four elements) in this quote. This quote only says a mind-mind kaya is either formed or has shape or form. The dictionary says rūpiṁ is an adjective.

I was not sharing the quote to link rupa to the four elements, but to present a case from the suttas where rupa is not linked to nama, but rather to mano. In the context of this discussion, this refutes your reasoning that nama and rupa have some unbreakable bond that justifies having them as one inseparable link.

The Buddha taught it as one & not as two. It is the teaching of it as one that requires investigation. What the nama intends immediately affects the rupa. If namarupa was naming the form, contact would occur before the naming. It would be rupa>nama instead of nama>rupa. It would be: Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). Nama is described in SN 12.2 as intention & application of mind. Nama is naming in Hinduism.

Intention and application of mind are two component of nama, but nama is described in terms of five components, so why to pick up on the two and leave the other three behind, and even if you take the five as a whole, why do you think nama would have the same characteristics as its individual components?

Also if you do not mind me asking, what do you mean by immediately? do you mean akāliko? or do you see the relationship between different nidānas to be made of time except for the relationship between nāma and rūpa to be made of something transcending time? The 12 links are explained in terms of origination and cessation. Do you think the relationship between nāma and rūpa to be exempt from origination and cessation?

And if nāma happened to mean naming in Hinduism, does it have to be different in Buddhism? (as if this would take away from the Buddha’s originality). It could still mean “naming” in Buddhism, but with no relevance to the aims and purposes of Hindus, so i feel to understand the essence of your objection by linking it to Hinduism.

The 12-links explanatory model is not the only one used by the Buddha. There is a 9-links model used in DN15- this link in SC has lots of commentaries:

  • Consciousness ⇄ Nāma-Rūpa → Contact → Feeling → Craving → Clinging → Existence → Birth → Aging and Death

In this sequence Consciousness and Nāma-Rūpa are conditioning each other mutually (but consciousness is the first link). Ignorance and Fabrications are ommited, and so the Six-bases (that are derived from Nāma-Rūpa). If I’m not mistaken there is another DO scheme with 10 links, representing all the links from Consciousness onwards (sense-bases included)

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It is interesting that the lunar year used to consist of 10 months, before adding two more months to align the year with the sun. This came to my attention when i wondered why October (with the prefix Oct - denoting the eighth) is listed as the tenth month in the calendars we currently use.

Attha-sila turn into dasa-sila by adding one precept only, and by dividing the seventh precept into two - which makes them effectively nine.

Thanks for bringing this up. I’ve heard this too but can’t seem to find it now. If anyone is better informed - please post.

edit: As a sidenote because I found this interesting: I just read this by Ven. Analayo (see below) . He references Joanna Jurewicz’ research stating that the DO presented as a twelve-link is actually intended “as some form of dialogue with Vedic creation myth” (p.5). Ven. Analayo states in the same paper that

The exposition in the Paccaya-sutta makes it clear
that applications of dependent arising that involve fewer
than twelve links are equally valid. These are simply alter-
native expressions of the same principle. Although the for-
mulation by way of twelve links is the one most often found,
it is, after all, just one mode of application.

(p. 3)

DN15 - The Great Discourse on Causation

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Thanks, Mike. I just read the Wiki-entry in English on DO and it lists some examples with less DO-links. So for those who like me are lagging behind - I think it provides an overview. It also talks about Joanna Jurewicz work, and here it becomes clear that she thinks it’s not only “a dialogue” with Vedic creation myth but rather a “parody”. Which is kinda interesting because I haven’t found this anywhere in the introductory stuff on Buddhism that I read when I started out. Come to think about it - actually not even later on in books that go beyond the introductionary level. :thinking:

Hi @thistle
I guess the introductory material concentrates, quite rightly, on standard interpretations. Bhikkhu Bodhi’s introduction to Chapter IX of “In the Buddha’s Words” https://readingfaithfully.org/in-the-buddhas-words-an-anthology-of-discourses-from-the-pali-canon-linked-to-suttacentral-net/ does discuss the various permutations found in the suttas:

Bhikkhu Analayo has a nice discussion about various models at the start of his 4th video about Bhikkhu Ñāṇananda’s Nibbana Sermons: Nibbāna: The Mind Stilled - Barre Center for Buddhist Studies
He gives a nice demonstration with his ruler and cup in the video and there is a nice diagram in the transcript (which was created by one of the participants on the course) that illustrates the non-linear nature of DO:

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