Near death experiences and Intermediate state

[Amatabhani]

@Christopher

And yet antarāparinibbāyī is only used to describe the first three. If it meant “not fully awakened”, we would expect it to be applied to the other four as well.

I agree that my interpretation in that comment was not quite correct. Different types of anāgāmīns given in the Sīlasutta are listed below.

1. antarāparinibbāyī
2. upahaccaparinibbāyī
3. asaṅkhāraparinibbāyī
4. sasaṅkhāraparinibbāyī
5. uddhaṃsoto akaniṭṭhagāmī
   Sīlasuttaṃ

Please note that there is no definitions for these words in EBTs. So now we have to interpret those words with no derect evidences from EBTs. We can come into a conclusion, with or without a view of an existance of an intermediate state.

@Christopher

Perhaps more convincing are the similes given after each type of case.

Think with upekkhā for a moment you will realize that so called convincing comes with your own view. This the same for me if I am going to prove that there is no intermediate state.

Since you already been explained, lets keep the idea that there is an intermediate state away for a moment.
What if there is no intermediate state.
How could we explain the similes?

Lets take the antarāparinibbāyī and simile which has three different types of similes representing three types of antarāparinibbāyīns.
With the ending of the five lower fetters they would be antarāparinibbāyīns.

1. Suppose you struck an iron pot that had been heated all day. Any spark that flew off would be extinguished.

2. Suppose you struck an iron pot that had been heated all day. Any spark that flew off and floated away would be extinguished.

3. Suppose you struck an iron pot that had been heated all day. Any spark that flew off and floated away would be extinguished just before landing.

Now the difference between three similes can be explained using the way used in commentaries.

1. The one who attain arahanthood just after the birth in suddāvāsa
2. The One who attain arahanthood some time after the birth in suddāvāsa but before the mid of the lifespan.
3. The one who attain arahanthood just close to the mid lifespan or right at the mid lifespan.

Now I am going to propose my own interpretation.
Since these are similes, one would accept that each of these similes illustrate how one could attain anāgāmīpala (hope the word is okay), where extinguishment of the spark can be rather taken as attaining of anāgāmīpala than arahantpala.
Here we can see that there are three different types of antarāparinibbāyīns. To get an idea about these three types lets take an account of EkabījīSutta (SN48.24)
In this sutta only one type of antarāparinibbāyīns can be seen. But in purisagatisutta there are three difderent types. Thus, the other attaining levels in EkabījīSutta could be included in above antarāparinibbāyīn types.
Then, Type 1 are the ones who attain anāgāmīpala in current life thats why the extinguishing and the separation from the metal occurs at once.
Type 2 are the ones who attain anāgāmīpala after this life in realms of kāma as sakadāgāmī, ekabījī and kolaṃkola where the distance travelled before extinguishment can be vary.
Type 3 are the ones who attain anāgāmīpala after this life in realms of kāma and gets the maximum number of births possible (7) as sattakkhattuparama similar to the travel of the spark to its maximum possible distance.
You may find the definitions for ekabījī, kolaṃkola and sattakkhattuparama in SaupādisesaSutta (AN9.12)

[Christopher]

@Amatabhani

Think with upekkhā for a moment you will realize that so called convincing comes with your own view.

Perhaps my wording wasn’t clear enough to avoid misinterpretation. I’m not interested in convincing anyone. My words were only intended to convey “This is what I’ve found to be convincing evidence”. No one else needs to be convinced. Just sharing my perspective and the reasoning behind it for anyone who might be interested. And I’m interested in your perspective and the reasoning behind it.

I’m curious why you take nibbāyī to refer to anāgāmiphala, rather than arahantaphala? AN 7.55 uses the same term to describe all seven cases and arahantship at the end of the sutta.

[Amatabhani]

@Christopher

No one else needs to be convinced

The phrase was edited before your reply, to get rid of the misunderstanding, seems it was a bit late.

@Christopher

I’m curious why you take nibbāyī to refer to anāgāmiphala , rather than arahantaphala ? AN 7.55 uses the same term to describe all seven cases and arahantship at the end of the sutta.

The sutta explains how one becomes an antarāparinibbāyī. Thats why I made that hypothesis.
There is a word “Seyyathāpi” in the beginning of each simile.
So this is not about nibbāyī.
Seyyathāpi - as, just as
The mendicant’s makes himself an antarāparinibbāyī just as any spark that flew off and floated away would be extinguished.

[Christopher]

I had not considered that interpretation. Thank you for sharing it.

[Amatabhani]

@Amatabhani

Now I am going to propose my own interpretation.
Since these are similes, one would accept that each of these similes illustrate how one could attain anāgāmīpala (hope the word is okay), where extinguishment of the spark can be rather taken as attaining of anāgāmīpala than arahantpala.
Here we can see that there are three different types of antarāparinibbāyīns. To get an idea about these three types lets take an account of EkabījīSutta (SN48.24 )
In this sutta only one type of antarāparinibbāyīns can be seen. But in purisagatisutta there are three difderent types. Thus, the other attaining levels in EkabījīSutta could be included in above antarāparinibbāyīn types.
Then, Type 1 are the ones who attain anāgāmīpala in current life thats why the extinguishing and the separation from the metal occurs at once.
Type 2 are the ones who attain anāgāmīpala after this life in realms of kāma as sakadāgāmī, ekabījī and kolaṃkola where the distance travelled before extinguishment can be vary.
Type 3 are the ones who attain anāgāmīpala after this life in realms of kāma and gets the maximum number of births possible (7) as sattakkhattuparama similar to the travel of the spark to its maximum possible distance.
You may find the definitions for ekabījī, kolaṃkola and sattakkhattuparama in SaupādisesaSutta (AN9.12)

This is not good explaination.
We do can make an assumption based on EkabījīSutta.
The extinguishment of the spark should be considered as the fruit of perfection (arahant).
As long as there is this type of anagāmins; the uddhaṃsoto akaniṭṭhagāmī, is someone who goes on realm to another in his last life without breaking off his body (kāya) like the king Mandhātu story as I remember.