Need for suffering?

did the buddha talk about the need for suffering to build resilience and character?

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I don’t think He particularly mentioned even the Middle-Way being easy. And Dhamma is hard to grasp. Whether there is a need for suffering is debatable, but the reality that the Saha World is full of suffering is the First Noble Truth.

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Suffering is the supporting condition for faith, and faith (in Dhamma) is the condition for inner joy (in Dhamma).
That inner joy is rooted in Dhamma, and this is a main factor of Enlightenment and necessary for awakening. From that inner joy the rest can go speedy without thinking too much.

“suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy, joy is the supporting condition for rapture, rapture is the supporting condition for tranquillity, tranquillity is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction of the cankers.”
SN 12.23

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In the Saha World we’re fighting with, towards, and against craving. So desire is a major factor as to why we suffer. And Buddha mentions desires as being the root of suffering. Whether our desires or another’s, our suffering is caused by the misunderstanding that is desire and lust.

Pulling from another ancient Indian Epic, the Bhagavad-Gita, Krsna mentions to Arjuna that the sin in this world is caused by lust only. So the deduction from that is that if everyone stopped lusting, there would be no sin in this world. Even the Suttas mention sin. And if there were no sin at all, there would be no suffering.

And so now in this current world there is also the stark need to do good, to make a kind and positive choice to change the world for the better, to encounter and spread Buddhadhamma. There is the difference between want and need. If the phenomena and living entities in this world only operated and worked on what they needed, and all Skillfully avoided lust, greed, and desire, we would be living in a Pure Land where the Buddha’s Law would endure for countless kalpas. The Enlightened Ones hold themselves to the Highest standard. Perhaps that is why it is so hard to reach Enlightenment?

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I think there is a difference between using conditionality to teach a way to transcend suffering, and to conclude teleological view of the world that necessitated suffering in order to being transcended.

In other words, the Buddha was a genius by discovering and teaching a way out of misery. He did despite lack of any purpose for existing in the world, not because of it.

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If you mean the ‘it’s good for practice’ mentality which you hear in some Dhamma circles. No.

Though as Puerh mentioned, in SN12.23 it can be one of the means for search and then faith.

There is also the 4 ways of practice. Easy practice with quick results, Easy practice with slow results, difficult practice with quick results, difficult practice with slow results.

A better way to build resilience and character is dāna and sīla. If you are interested in ‘character’ then maybe take a look at hiri ottappa.

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And a corollary of this is the notion of keeping difficult people around to help you improve. Totally not something the Buddha taught. Fortunately.

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I think saying “Suffering is a condition for faith” being confused as a statement “Suffer so you’ll develop faith”.

Suffering is already present; it is the ground from which we build our practice. One doesn’t need to increase suffering - only to realise it in this life, in order to transcend it completely.

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My impression is that when one does no take refuge feeling helpless, in trouble, unsafe, unprotected in this world, Buddha-Dhamma will probably be dealt with as a philosophy and not something one really personally needs to find peace of heart again.

In this sense i feel that the concrete personal experience of suffering, is really fundamental such as said in the mentioned sutta. And indeed, the concrete experience of suffering is a condition for having faith in a doctor, his advices, his medicines.

People who do not really feel helpless, unsafe, unprotected, they often also do not feel a need for going to a doctor.

That is why i think the real experience of suffering, and especially the experience of being helpless, unprotected, at drift, anxious, feeling unsafe, those are really a condition for having faith in Buddha as doctor and Dhamma as cure and Sangha as the Cured Ones.

Those people really feel they need this doctor and his medicine. But people who are still young, healthy, with a feeling of being in control, they do not yet feel the need for a doctor and his medicine, is my experience. They still feel that the spiritual path is more like a luxury, an interesting study object, more like an intellectual challenge.

Do not think so. But he talked about suffering as result of deeds in the past. Once they ripen they must be endured. But the escape of painful feelings is not taught as building character but letting go of aversion towards painful things. Letting go of the craving.

Thank you so much everyone! It will take me a while to read, re-read, look things up you said, dig in, form questions, try to answer them myself before asking ‘silly’ questions, then ask any leftover questions. So
again
thank you so much for your input. Meets my needs for learning and understanding. :heart:

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In his lecture series “Buddhist Romanticism”, Ajahn Thanissaro said: “There is nothing noble about suffering.” I find that was really helpful in a way that it freed me from the trap of Romanticism’s conditioning and trust in myself to move toward developing real understanding of suffering.

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Something deeper than nobility sometimes. I keep getting reminded that to reach Enlightenment one must truly face their suffering and answer it.

From whichever way you look at suffering, at someone’s like Christ’s who died for His friends, to the sad suffering in the slaughterhouses of innocent animals, just so many people can eat, we can deduce that suffering is unnecessary, but it’s a truth, it’s there, and so therefore Buddhism gives us a great Way and answer to so help alleviate, pacify, and peacefully extinguish it.

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Hi, I kinda don’t agree with you. If you are alive, you are suffering. People can feel that they do not need help, that they are protected, that they are the kings and queens or something between. That’s ignorance. In reality, they need help, they are not protected, they are not king/queen/something else of nothing, not even of themselves.

You can be the most miserable person in the world and you still can think like that. So, I don’t believe that more suffering in someone’s life will change this


Yes, i see what you say. I feel this is true.

I think there needs to be some kind of sensitivity. I was not that sensitive for the welbeing of others and also not of myself. For example, i fished. I regret that. I now feel it is very cruel but i did not see that at that time when i was around 18-20.

To be honest, it took a lot of time before i became aware that really all beings wish to be happy and not suffer. Crises has opened my heart. I am thankful for that but it was a very difficult time.

But in general i do not believe that knowlegde really makes the difference. I believe that most people really know what is wholesome and not. But that knowledge is often empty of meaning because people do not listen to that. But why not?

We are really often an enemy to ourselves and really easily inclined to self-affliction, hurting ourselves. But even when one knows and feels this, even when one is really wounded by ones own choices and actions, even then
 this knowledge and experience might still make no difference at all.

So, maybe we can continue this discussion reflecting upon: What do we really need to make changes for the better, IF knowledge and feeling the bad consequences of our choices and deeds
makes no difference?

Thanks for your comment