New Bhikkhuni Special Report from VOA Thai (English, Thai subtitle)

Vinaya has this allowance;

Now at that time the features of a woman appeared on a certain monk. They told the Blessed One about this matter. [He said,] “Monks, I allow the same teacher, the same ordination, the same rainy seasons together with the nuns. I allow reinstatement among the nuns for those offenses that nuns share in common with monks. According to those offenses of monks that are not shared in common with nuns, there is no offense.

Now at that time, the features of a man appeared on a certain nun. They told the Blessed One about this matter. [He said,] “Monks, I allow the same teacher, the same ordination, the same rainy seasons in relation to the monks. I allow reinstatement among the monks for those offenses that monks share in common with the nuns. According to those offences of nuns that not shared in common with monks, there is no offense” (Vin III.35).

I am not an expert on this but afaik it’s more or less like this;

According to a text included in the Canon, Buddha was hestitant in allowing Bhikkhuni ordination, he did however allow it and imposed 8 particular restraints.

At that time there were no Bhikkhunis and he allowed Bhikkhus to ordain women as to start the nun-order.

After this, as far as we can establish ordinations were preformed exclusively by their respective gender as unilateral ordinations.

Nowadays most monks are trained to think that the allowance for monks to ordain women (aka bilateral ordination) was rescinded once the Nun’s order was established, that nowadays only the unilateral ordinations are permitted.

Many think that women won’t have any teachers and that they will be ‘out of control’ and somehow damage something.

Some nuns and supporters seem to dislike the text which imposed the 8 particular restraints and permitted the female ordination in the first place. Some people have tried to make a case for it being a ‘fake’ but not much has come out of it.

Either way, not following the 8 restraints and trying to dismiss the canonical text seems to only antagonize the opposition.

There is also a case being made based on the initial hestitancy of The Buddha in allowing females to get full ordination, it is said that it made the Dhamma not last as long as it could’ve.
Because of this people don’t like the idea of a ‘revival’ of a bhikkhunisangha thinking that it will further accelerate the disappearance of good things.

I personally think that the ordinations are probably valid, in part because mn142 says that in the future there will be immoral “members of the clan” or “members of the spiritual family” [who will be ‘yellow-necks’ or ‘wearing yellow scarf around their neck’] and that gifts to them will be given on account of the sangha.

As it’s not saying ‘in future there will be immoral bhikkhus’ which would imo be natural if the sangha had at that time become unilateral, i think it’s likely that both orders are around at the time of yellownecks.

I also think that even if female ordinations weren’t valid they can still be said to be having gone forth into homelessness out of dedication to The Blessed One, be allowed to keep as many precepts as they like and be called Bhinkhunis because Pukkusati was called a bhikkhu by The Blessed One and was said to have gone forth in these terms without ever receiving a full ordination. See mn140

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Dear @anon92904629 I heard your confusion and pain. I’m glad @inb4dead was able to answer your question :slight_smile: And I hope you have a bit more understanding and peace now :pray:

And @inb4dead Sadhu for raising Pukkusati and MN140 :smiley: That sutta has been an inspiration for my own practice :pray: I just imagine Pukkusati as Pukkusata :slight_smile:

So the Buddha said to Pukkusāti, 5.1“In whose name have you gone forth, reverend? Who is your Teacher? Whose teaching do you believe in?”

5.2“Reverend, there is the ascetic Gotama—a Sakyan, gone forth from a Sakyan family. 5.3He has this good reputation: 5.4‘That Blessed One is perfected, a fully awakened Buddha, accomplished in knowledge and conduct, holy, knower of the world, supreme guide for those who wish to train, teacher of gods and humans, awakened, blessed.’ 5.5I’ve gone forth in his name. 5.6That Blessed One is my Teacher, 5.7and I believe in his teaching.”


“Sir, may I receive the going forth, the ordination in the Buddha’s presence?”

34.2“But mendicant, are your bowl and robes complete?”

34.3“No, sir, they are not.”

34.4“The Realized Ones do not ordain those whose bowl and robes are incomplete.”

35.1And then Venerable Pukkusāti approved and agreed with what the Buddha said. He got up from his seat, bowed, and respectfully circled the Buddha, keeping him on his right, before leaving.

35.2But while he was wandering in search of a bowl and robes, a stray cow took his life.

36.1Then several mendicants went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him, 36.2“Sir, the gentleman named Pukkusāti, who was advised in brief by the Buddha, has passed away. 36.3Where has he been reborn in his next life?”

36.4“Mendicants, Pukkusāti was astute. He practiced in line with the teachings, and did not trouble me about the teachings. 36.5With the ending of the five lower fetters, he’s been reborn spontaneously and will become extinguished there, not liable to return from that world.”
:thaibuddha: :dharmawheel: :pray:

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I’m not disagreeing with your analysis of the director’s attitude and intention towards this monk. :slight_smile:

For this particular part, I would say that it was possible that the cameraman’s angle just simply represented where laypeople are supposed to sit when talking to a Thai monk (lower position). :grin: :grin: :grin:

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A very good Thai monk that I have high respect for told me that it was true that some monks were afraid that lay supporters would prefer to move their support to ‘female monks’ because

  1. Laywomen like to seek advice from monks as they regards monks as being wise. (Yes, I know that monastics are not psychiatrists or counsellors, but that was a common relationship between monks and laypeople in my country.)

However, when it comes to romantic or husband-and-wife relationship issues, male monks tend to advise women to be patient and kind and forgiving (which is, of course, good), so it sounds more like preaching or reciting a morality book rather than paying attention to a particular situation of that individuals.

Having female monks means that women can feel more open when they talk about their problems.

  1. Males in my country get ordained as per the tradition. Some love the teachings and stay in robes to live a life in the footsteps of the Buddha. Some just stay on because they don’t have ambition to succeed in any secular career. Some just see this as an opportunity for free accommodation and food and cash.

Women who ordained as Bikkhunis have to go through lots of difficulties to get ordained, which shows their determination to practicing the dhamma. Hence, most, if not all, of them are totally inspiring!

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I know. I was unpleasantly surprised to hear him say that. And though he said that with a calm and kind voice, I got a feeling that he was not really being kind and understanding towards women at all…

This is the video: The Buddha's Forgotten Nuns (2013) - YouTube

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I didn’t really get a creepy vibe from the Thai monk—he just seemed like a regular monk in a typical Thai city temple office. But his remarks were repugnant… a shame, really.

Glad to see the bhikkhunī sangha growing, though, and receiving some positive media attention.

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