SuttaCentral
Hello again all!
I was reading somewhere that devas can “burn up” so much good karma being in the heaven realms that it is possible for them to be reborn as humans.
(I apologize - I no longer remember where I read this.)
Is this in the Suttas??
Thank you in advance for any clarification you may offer.
It was in Aggañña Sutta, The Origin of the World Sutta DN 27. SuttaCentral
But you don’t need to look very far, just look at some of the very rich and powerful people in the society, how they rise and fall, and you’ll see.
Iti 83
This was said by the Lord…“Bhikkhus, when a deva is due to pass away from a company of devas, five prognostic signs appear: his flower-garlands wither, his clothes become soiled, sweat is released from his armpits, his bodily radiance fades, and the deva takes no delight in his heavenly throne. The devas, observing the prognostic signs that this deva is due to pass away, encourage him in three things with the words: ‘Go from here, friend, to a good bourn. Having gone to a good bourn, gain that which is good to gain. Having gained that which is good to gain, become firmly established in it.’”
When this was said, a certain bhikkhu asked the Lord: “Venerable sir, what is reckoned by the devas to be a good bourn? What is reckoned by the devas to be a gain that is good to gain? What is reckoned by the devas to be firmly established?”
“It is human existence, bhikkhus, that is reckoned by the devas to be a good bourn. When a human being acquires faith in the Dhamma-and-Discipline taught by the Tathāgata, this is reckoned by the devas to be a gain that is good to gain.
SN56.109
the sentient beings who die as gods and are reborn as humans are few, while those who die as gods and are reborn in hell, or the animal realm, or the ghost realm are many.
AN4.33
Now, there are gods who are long-lived, beautiful, and very happy, lasting long in their divine palaces. When they hear this teaching by the Realized One, they’re typically filled with fear, awe, and terror. ‘Oh no! It turns out we’re impermanent, though we thought we were permanent! It turns out we don’t last, though we thought we were everlasting! It turns out we’re transient, though we thought we were eternal! It turns out that we’re impermanent, not lasting, transient, and included within identity.’
As to why good kamma is necessary…
AN5.31
Here, Bhante, there might be two disciples of the Blessed One equal in faith, virtuous behavior, and wisdom, but one is generous while the other is not. With the breakup of the body, after death, they would both be reborn in a good destination, in a heavenly world. When they have become devas, would there be any distinction or difference between them?”“There would be, Sumanā,” the Blessed One said. “The generous one, having become a deva, would surpass the other in five ways: in celestial life span, celestial beauty, celestial happiness, celestial glory, and celestial authority. The generous one, having become a deva, would surpass the other in these five ways.”
“But, Bhante, if these two pass away from there and again become human beings, would there still be some distinction or difference between them?”
“There would be, Sumanā,” the Blessed One said. “When they again become human beings, the generous one would surpass the other in five ways: in human life span, human beauty, human happiness, human fame, and human authority. When they again become human beings, the generous one would surpass the other in these five ways.”
Traditionally, it’s said that when a deva is approaching the end of its life, other devas encourage it to aspire to be reborn as a human. But more often they are reborn in the lower realms.
THANK YOU ALL!!
This is why The Dhamma makes so much sense to me. We are subject to the consequences of our choices. Cause and effect, action and reaction.
As always, I appreciate your help.
MN 117 is an important text in regard to acceptance of the action of kamma being the basis of practice, or mundane right view:
"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? ‘There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.’ This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.
“And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view[1] in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.”
Something to consider is that fundamental to the Buddha’s teaching is The four Noble Truths and Dependent Origination. Dependent Origination is sometimes mistaken for causality but it is actually specific conditionality.
“When this exists, that is; due to the arising of this, that arises.”
“When this doesn’t exist, that is not; due to the cessation of this, that ceases.”
So birth doesn’t cause death but without birth, death couldn’t be.
The Four Noble Truths and the impermanent nature of conditioned things is a teaching essential to practice, while DO is on the side of theory and not necessary for direct experience:
…and to end rebirth.
Personally, through practice and direct experience I’m inspired by The Four Noble Truths in their three perspectives and twelve respects. Knowing dukkha, how to recognize it, what it feels like when it’s there and when it’s not. To know its arising, its cessation and to discover and implement a path away from dukkha, towards nibbana. Personally I’m also inspired by Dependent Origination more than in theory. The Buddha’s descriptions of what he did in practice to awaken, to purify his mind, his thoughts, speech and actions, to dispel ignorance and end craving is exciting to me, a path I wish to emulate. I aspire to practice sifting my thoughts, abandoning the unwholesome, facing my delusions of self, permanence and what is beautiful and what is not. To see the samsara that binds me, to knock down both vinnana and namarupa. I want to see with clarity tanha and upadana in grossness and subtleties. I wish to know my past lives and see an end to kammabhava. Perhaps I’m a simpleton, but that’s what I want to incline towards both in theory and in practice. Please, no disrespect intended, I just wanted to mention that, to me personally, Dependent Origination is so, so beautiful. I apologize if I drifted from the OP.