New Comparative Translation of Chinese Arthapada-Sūtra

Bhikkhu Dukil (Seongryong Lee) has published a new translation of the Chinese Arthapada-Sūtra (義足經), the parallel to the Pāḷi Aṭṭhakavagga. This is an astonishing feat, and a great stride in Buddhist studies. The notes seem quite extensive in the translation, and the overall dissertation is in the domain of early Buddhist studies specifically, which is itself quite special. The title of the dissertation is:

“Pre-institutional Buddhist Traditions in the Arthapada: A Comparative Study and Complete Annotated Translation of Its Chinese Translation Yizujing (義足經), Derived from an Indic Recension, and Its Pāli Recension Aṭṭhakavagga”

Here is the link:
https://escholarship.org/uc/item/2gg1f083

It would be great if there were a way to have this added onto SuttaCentral!

13 Likes

Excellent, and well done! @Raftafarian @knotty36

3 Likes

Thank you Venerable for highlighting this work! Seems quite interesting. For instance this is quite the claim:

In the course of my discussion, I contest the prevailing assumption held by numerous Pāli scholars that Buddhist literary development moved from homogeneity to diversity. Alternatively, I propose that the historical progression often reversed this course: transitioning from initial diversity towards increasing uniformity through the process of literary normativization. The Arthapadanot only demonstrate the absence of a distinctive Buddhist identity but also a lack of systematized Buddhist doctrines. I suggest that early authors created a vast corpus of religious discourses often without strict hermeneutical precision. These early authors appeared to be less concerned aboutdoctrinal inconsistencies compared to the later compilers of the Buddhist canonical literature, a fact that is evidenced in the ancient text ‘Arthapada’ and its ensuing commentaries.

The author is claiming that Buddhism as a distinct religion opposite early Jainism and other ancient Indian religious traditions did not form until far after the passing of Shakyamuni. He argues it could be that there was no Great Man that formed a coherent religion we now call Buddhism. At least, that is what I understand from reading the first portion of the thesis. :pray:

1 Like

This to me seems the main conclusion of the thesis:

Considering the two different chronological layers suggested by Fronsdal––the pre-institutional phase and the ongoing institutionalization phase––I propose that during the earlier phase, Buddhist compilers of the Aṭṭhakavagga may not have yet developed a keen sense of a unique Buddhist identity. This lack of a Buddhist identity is evident in the epithets for the ideal person in the text.Epithets such as bhagavant (the Blessed One) and tathāgata (the Thus Gone) never occur, even though they are ubiquitous in the other Pāli literature. The epithet ‘buddha (the Awakened One)’ appears just once in the Sāriputtasutta, which, according to both Fronsdal’s and my classification, represents the later phase of ongoing monastic development.

Instead of using these well-known Buddhist epithets, the text employs epithets such as muni (sage), bhikkhu (monk), brāhmaṇa (brahmin), and dhīra (wise one), which were not exclusive to Buddhism but were common among other religious subgroups of the time. The anomalous term *yakkha (the Spiritual One), in particular, seldom appears as an epithet for the ideal person elsewhere in Pāli literature. The usage of the term samaṇa (mendicant) in the Aṭṭhakavagga also contrasts with its usage found elsewhere in Nikāya literature: while the Buddha is described as a (great) samaṇa in other Pāli texts, the samaṇa in the Aṭṭhakavagga refers to a misguided ascetic who becomes entangled in disputes with others due to their unwieldy attachment to their dogmatic views.

The absence of uniquely Buddhist epithets, the prevalence of cross-denominational epithets, the rare usage of the epithet ‘yakkha,’ and the negative portrayal of the epithet ‘samaṇa’––all these features point to the pre-institutional phase of the Buddhist traditions when a distinctive Buddhist identity had not yet been established.

The author adopts and expands Fronsdal to draw the hypothesis that the Aṭṭhakavagga represents a period of pre-institutional Buddhism that was not considered necessarily differentiated from other Ancient Indian religions of the time. The rest of the Pali canon otoh represents later institutionalization and that the points where the Aṭṭhakavagga are seen in contradiction with later doctrinal developments like “Right View” and so the latter is seen as doctrinal institutionalization.

So there you have it: the EBT project now has a scholar who claims that nearly all of the Pali canon is late in comparison to Aṭṭhakavagga which is the earliest and that “Buddhism”, the 4NT, the Eightfold path, DO, and Right View are all late inventions of later Buddhist institutionalizers.

Proposed title could have been, “The Aṭṭhakavagga - putting the E in the EBT.” :joy: :pray:

2 Likes

I wouldn’t be surprised if those were all later creations, perhaps during Buddha’s time, perhaps later. I still think Buddha uttered DO, and likely had a hand in formulation of 4/8.

This historical-critical approach is a nice way to shake up our assumptions, but then again, to dwell much on it beyond that is also a hindrance for soteriology.

We can never be sure any of Pāli, Mahāyāna, any of it was ever spoken by Shakyamuni. Nor should it truly matter. Either the stories are good, the wisdom is sound, the path works or not.

I’m all for refusing to believe things happened exactly as it came down to us, and using any evidence to remember this fact.

We run into this problem on these forums too. Too often we berate each other saying “AN69.420 says this, so you’re wrong!” without being analytical about the sutta itself. The suttas are a guide, and sometimes (heresy!) they might be wrong. There’s no consolation prize if we take up a false view and our justification is “B-but our sacred suttas told us it was true!!1!1!!”

It’s still an amazing literature, one worthy of discussing around, more fun and worthwhile to investigate than it is to watch the latest Star Wars. :sweat_smile:

You could call me a Kalama Sutta maximalist!

3 Likes

Yeah, I wouldn’t put too much importance on comments and research like this. What’s great here is the translation.

Obviously the text seems less uniquely Buddhist. It’s about the religious context of the time. It’s about debate and other views and how the ideal sage should be from the Buddhist perspective among a sea of different voices and opinions.

There are plenty of issues w/ the story that the Atthakavagga is a kind of Buddhist Dead Sea Scroll. Scholars are still working through their hopes, imagination, and understanding of Buddhist texts. Eventually I think Buddhist studies will gain a more well-rounded perspective.

2 Likes

Hah! Good analogy with DSS. We’re all trying to find that though, aren’t we? Theravada says it’s the Pali Canon, except for Jataka some say, except for Abhidhamma some say, except both some say, except neither and nor any prose say others. Mahayana say, well agamas are placeholders. Lotus Sutra is the heart of the teaching! Actually its Heart Sutra that’s the Heart of the sutra! On and on!

Everyone’s got a favourite sutra and everyone else is obviously an idiot!

Will the real Slim Buddha please stand up? :laughing:

Thanks for that. I liked that the final sutra was a close parallel to Snp4.15 Taking up Arms.

It’s a pity that Bhante @sujato’s work on the Snp (talks, translations, and notes) and Ñāṇadīpa Thera’s translation ( The Silent Sages of Old): Books - PathPressPublications are not mentioned in this context:

Gil Fronsdal (2016), the most recent scholar to work on the Aṭṭhakavagga, authored a
book titled The Buddha Before Buddhism, …

Unfortunately, it seems that unless material is in books by mainstream publishers, it won’t get much attention in academia…

1 Like

Yes, this seems to be a real unfortunate issue. Bhante Sujato has done a lot of wonderful work on early Buddhism. Because it is out of the loop, it seems to receive close to no discussion in academia.

Thank you @cdpatton for tagging me, and thank you to @Vaddha for posting this.

I reached to this Venerable several years ago when I had first heard about his project. I don’t recall whether or not he ever responded. (I don’t think so, though.) In fact, as I recall, I attempted to contact him more than once, so eager was I to find out if he was nearing completion. I’m so happy to see that he’s done it.

I look forward to reading it with great enthusiasm!

Thanks to all!

we are reading this saturdays at 1:30 pm central standard time. message if you’d like to join

2 Likes

We have a little reading group on Saturdays reading this alongside the Snp parallels. If anyone is interested, just PM Sovatthika for details. I’ve attended several sessions to answer any questions about the Chinese version people have.

2 Likes

the reading group is moving to thursday for now. however the time is later in american time so maybe we can get some aussies

But is says;

Dhonassa hi natthi kuhiñci loke,
The cleansed one has no formulated view
Pakappitā diṭṭhi bhavābhavesu;
at all in the world about the different realms.
Māyañca mānañca pahāya dhono,
Having given up illusion and conceit,
Sa kena gaccheyya anūpayo so.
by what path would they go? They are not involved.

Upayo hi dhammesu upeti vādaṁ,
For one who is involved gets embroiled in disputes about teachings—
Anūpayaṁ kena kathaṁ vadeyya;
but how to dispute with the uninvolved? About what?
Attā nirattā na hi tassa atthi,
For picking up and putting down is not what they do;
Adhosi so diṭṭhimidheva sabbanti.
they have shaken off all views in this very life.

Whereas the Sammādiṭṭhisutta at MN9 says;

“‘Sammādiṭṭhi sammādiṭṭhī’ti, āvuso, vuccati.
“Reverends, they speak of this thing called ‘right view’.
Kittāvatā nu kho, āvuso, ariyasāvako sammādiṭṭhi hoti, ujugatāssa diṭṭhi, dhamme aveccappasādena samannāgato, āgato imaṁ saddhamman”ti?
How do you define a noble disciple who has right view, whose view is correct, who has experiential confidence in the teaching, and has come to the true teaching?”

And Sariputta goes on to define this view, amongst other things as;

A noble disciple understands defilement, its origin, its cessation, and the practice that leads to its cessation.
ettāvatāpi kho, āvuso, ariyasāvako sammādiṭṭhi hoti, ujugatāssa diṭṭhi, dhamme aveccappasādena samannāgato, āgato imaṁ saddhammaṁ.
When they’ve done this, they’re defined as a noble disciple who has right view, whose view is correct, who has experiential confidence in the teaching, and has come to the true teaching.

So the ideal practitioner in the Aṭṭhakavagga is different from the one described by Sariputta in the Sammādiṭṭhisutta.

Pointing out this apperant condtradiction and asking what might explain it is not

It is a legitimate question, and the possibility that an answer involves the passage of time from the composition of say Snp4.3 and MN9 is a legitimate possibility.

There are of course other legitimate possibilities, but I have yet to see much to critique this one that isn’t either just really unconvincing (Aṭṭhakavagga is like the Faerie Queene by Edmund Spenser) or more or less just name-calling.

1 Like

A common answer I’ve got from monastics over the years is that the vehicle is different from the destination - that is, right view should lead to no view eventually, like with the raft analogy.

Such an idea is not alien to Buddhism - Ananda once recalls how chanda for no-chanda leads to eradication of all chanda eventually, the aforementioned raft simile, etc.

N8P is a vehicle for the disciple, not for the arahant to cling onto. It’s fair to read passages about “no view” with reference to the final attainment in present life, that is, that of an arahant.

Although, it’s also fair to assume passages about arahant’s purity were composed earlier, and when people didn’t immediately get the message, more systematic teachings were composed. But I don’t see a fundamental conflict with those two points (right view and no view) that is out of line with general buddhist philosophy. :slight_smile:

Roughly speaking, we have:

Ordinary folk = Wrong view
Noble disciple = Right view
Cleansed one, Arahant = No view

For example, seeing “Oh shoot, having any views is wrong!” is still a view, albeit a useful (hence “Right”) view. Then there comes the practice, eradication of all views, until there is in fact, no view.

The process is fast and immediate with some, slow and long with others, like with addiction. Some people go off cold turkey and never return, some people are stuck in addiction although they’re also aware that the addiction is hurting them.

So I think we should be careful to compare the practitioner from the perfected one. :slight_smile:

3 Likes

Yes, also MN72 for another example of this idea.

“Atthi pana bhoto gotamassa kiñci diṭṭhigatan”ti?
“But does Mister Gotama have any convictions at all?”

“Diṭṭhigatanti kho, vaccha, apanītametaṁ tathāgatassa.
“A realized one has done away with convictions.

This is what I was alluding to when I said there were “other possibilities”.

1 Like

There is also a sutta describing a tri-partite view:

  1. mundane wrong view
  2. mundane right view
  3. supramundane right view

The latter is not described as “no view” :wink:

But the question arises, “what even is ^a view^” and what does it mean to have “no view”?

Whatever the case, the theory presented in OP essay is about what is “early” and what is “institutionalized Buddhism” and I think it ironic that the EBT project now contains a scholarly thesis that EBT is by definition an oxymoron :joy: :pray:

1 Like

I imagine you are referring to MN117 or such like that says things like:

Katamā ca, bhikkhave, sammādiṭṭhi?
And what is right view?

Sammādiṭṭhimpahaṁ, bhikkhave, dvāyaṁ vadāmi—
Right view is twofold, I say.

atthi, bhikkhave, sammādiṭṭhi sāsavā puññabhāgiyā upadhivepakkā;
There is right view that is accompanied by defilements, partakes of good deeds, and ripens in attachments.

atthi, bhikkhave, sammādiṭṭhi ariyā anāsavā lokuttarā maggaṅgā.
And there is right view that is noble, undefiled, transcendent, a factor of the path.

and then

Katamā ca, bhikkhave, sammādiṭṭhi ariyā anāsavā lokuttarā maggaṅgā?
And what is right view that is noble, undefiled, transcendent, a factor of the path?

Yā kho, bhikkhave, ariyacittassa anāsavacittassa ariyamaggasamaṅgino ariyamaggaṁ bhāvayato paññā paññindriyaṁ paññābalaṁ dhammavicayasambojjhaṅgo sammādiṭṭhi maggaṅgaṁ—
It’s the wisdom—the faculty of wisdom, the power of wisdom, the awakening factor of investigation of principles, and right view as a factor of the path—in one intent on the noble, intent on the undefiled, who possesses the noble path and develops the noble path.

ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, sammādiṭṭhi ariyā anāsavā lokuttarā maggaṅgā.
This is called right view that is noble, undefiled, transcendent, a factor of the path.

The PTS Dictionary says;

Diṭṭhi, (f.) (Sk. dṛṣṭi; cp. dassana) view, belief, dogma, theory, speculation.

it means belief.

But perhaps “belief” is the problem, after all, just because we now know what diṭṭhi means in english doesn’t mean we know what “belief” means in english :slight_smile:

the internet says;

Belief, an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.

and having no beliefs is exactly what the buddha says in MN72, he doesn’t believe that the universe or the soul is eternal, temporary, both, neither, etc etc, as all of these things are beliefs, things that people hold on to without proof, without knowing. And the Buddha has done away with all that.

I find all that pretty straight forward on any sensible and parsimonious reading of Aṭṭhakavagga or MN 72 or DN1 etc etc.

MN117 on the other hand…

(I will say as an aside here before plunging ahead. I wrote quite a few paragraphs more in my last response to you before deleting them before posting, thinkin I may offend the more sensitive souls here. I regret that, and I find that I am more and more conscious with each passing week of just how intensely and comprehensively the ambient and unspoken social order here influences and even dictates what can and can’t be said, and how. I will temporarily “speak freely” in what is to come. I hope that people can get past their reflexive stance, but even if they can’t, well, so be it.)

One of the immense and palpable ironies of “EBT” Buddhism is it’s total lack of nuance or sensitivity in the way it throws the entirety of Mahayana and other Buddhisms under the bus, loudly and self-importantly shouts it’s own superiority from the rooftops because it is “first”, “oldest”, “original;” etc and then shrilly and frantically condemns and decries anyone and everyone who dare to suggest that there are parts of Buddhist literature that predate the prose suttas.

The “EBT” project it seems to me has always in practice been twofold: on the one hand it works tirelessly to promote the material it sees as early and by implication denigrate the material it sees as late, and on the other hand it woks even more tirelessly to delegitimize, obscure and erase awareness of the enormous amount of scholarship that points to the in the end obvious fact that the nikaya/agamas formed over hundreds of years all of which almost certainly post date the “Buddha” if there even ever was such a person.

Scholars have recognized that the Aṭṭhakavagga appears to be earlier than the prose suttas for centuries.

Read straightforwardly, a LOT of the poetry reads like it was composed before there where complex doctrines like five clinging aggregates, a heirachy of jhanas into formlessnesses, 12 links in the DO, etc etc, in fact, re3ad straightforwardly a lot of the prose reads like it was composed before those things.

But there is a multi billion dollar global institution, that many, many people join, receiving lifetime food, accommodation, and the literal worship of devout followers, that is highly motivated to encourage the idea that there DEFINITLY was a Buddha, and he ALMOST CERTIANLY said, more or less, in outline if not in detail, what is said in the prose suttas.

Again, when you actually read the stuff, it’s like chalk and cheese, the central idea of the Aṭṭhakavagga is powerful, profound, terse, and reflects a material culture TOTALLY AT ODDS with the one we can infer from the material (sources to come) that says things like “if you can’t handle solitary wandering, stay at the monastery dormitory, it’s safer!” and “ONe of the best things you can do for your kamma is donate a royal parks!” and “fake monks are dangerous, you may not even know what jhana is but you are liberated by learning!”

The idea that somehow, when you squint, the poetry that is commentated on by the Niddessa is “the same” as the prose, is RIDICULOUS.

The mental gymnastics required to explain away the COUNTLESS examples of doctrinal evolution, evolution of material culture from non-urban to urban, changes in metre (changes that track the changes in non-buddhist poetics btw, and clearly cover a period of hundreds of years, not decades), changes in language (again, not just words, but whole languages), changes in tone, changes in the felicity of parallels, the list goes on and on and on, and thats not even canvasing the VAST amount of contemporary or near contemporary scholarship that has to be constantly ignored, denigrated when it is brought up, mischaracterized, etc etc.

“EBT” is a MONASTIC movement, it is essentially a reform movement within Therevada that seeks to more or less revive a contemporary version of “Sautrantika”. It therefore needs to be able to wave away the commentaries where necessary (and even abhidhamma or vinaya where absolutely necessary) but it also needs to tacitly or explicitly defend the view that the bulk of the Nikaya/Agamas are really “close enough” to the word of the Buddha, and it needs (now mostly tacitly and I except unconsciously) to privilege monasticism above laity and especially above academic scholarship where that scholarship points out the OBVIOUS tissue thin nature of their fundamental position in relation to the evidence.

MN117 is a near-perfect example of a text that is clearly the result of a culture that was recompiling litanies of old wisdom sayings into ever more complicated, ever more redundant, and frankly ever more incoherent products.

It is evidence of a culture that had radically changed from the days when solitary wandering sages gave brilliant gnomic statements to a time when large urban monasteries with classroom’s full of monastics memorizing permutations of lists of doctrine.

That this is the case is obvious to anyone who actually simply reads the material without prior religious convictions.

Anyway /rant :slight_smile:

2 Likes

Best post award. Thankyou for this

1 Like

The Chinese Arthapada-Sūtra (義足經) and its Pāli parallel Aṭṭhakavagga (compiled in the 4th vagga of Sutta-nipāta in the Khuddaka-nikāya) belong to Gāthā ‘Verse’, no. 4th of the nine aṅgas.