Nibbana -- A "dhamma", a "dhatu" -- or utter extinguishment?

I also agree with this statement by Ven. Bodhi. Nibbana is a reality explicitly declared by the Buddha in the 3rd Noble Truth.

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Well, “death” here is referring to the final extinguishing of the khandas which remain present until the physical death of an arahant.
From Ven. Brahmali’s paper, cited in a post above: " ‘Non-provisional Nibbāna’ is reached at arahant-ship, and ‘final Nibbāna’ at the death of the arahant (see below). In each case something is extinguished (either temporarily or permanently): in first jhāna the five hindrances and the five senses are temporarily extinguished, in the second jhāna vitakka-vicāra etc… At final Nibbāna all five aggregates are permanently extinguished."

The main topic of this thread is the continuing controversy about whether “final nibbāna” is utter extinguishment or whether, per Ven. Bodhi, a “dhamma”, a “dhatu”, an “unconditioned reality” is attained – words get dicey at this point… :slightly_smiling_face:

Also, in his paper Ven. Bodhi states parinibbana refers not to nibbana after death, with the dissolution of the khandas and all conditional dhammas, but to the act or process of an arahant’s passing.
There are also differences of interpretations regarding this, too.
:pray:

Fading away (dispassion) is said to be the best of all things whether conditioned or unconditioned. That is, the quelling of vanity, the removing of thirst, the abolishing of clinging, the breaking of the round, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.

Yāvatā, bhikkhave, dhammā saṅkhatā vā asaṅkhatā vā, virāgo tesaṁ aggamakkhāyati, yadidaṁ madanimmadano pipāsavinayo ālayasamugghāto vaṭṭupacchedo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

I highlighted extinguishment which was translated by Ven. Sujato from nibbānaṁ

That’s Nibbana as translated in Ven. Bodhi’s version.

Bhikkhu Bodhi said: “of all dhammas, conditioned or unconditioned, the most excellent dhamma, the supreme dhamma is, Nibbana

The sutta says: “of all dhammas, conditioned or unconditioned, the most excellent dhamma, the supreme dhamma is, dispassion

Therefore, the question arises, is ‘dispassion’ a conditioned dhamma or an unconditioned dhamma?

It seems ‘dispassion’ may be ‘conditioned’ therefore the Buddha has said this conditioned dhamma is supreme or superior in comparison to the unconditioned dhamma. :face_with_monocle:

So how do you explain the word " yadidaṁ"? The whole list madanimmadano pipāsavinayo ālayasamugghāto vaṭṭupacchedo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ go together to explain the fading away at the beginning.

Bhikkhu Bodhi translated this as:

To whatever extent there are phenomena conditioned or unconditioned, dispassion is declared the foremost among them ( virāgo tesaṁ aggamakkhāyati), that is, the crushing of pride, the removal of thirst, the uprooting of attachment, the termination of the round, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbāna. Those who have confidence in the Dhamma have confidence in the foremost, and for those who have confidence in the foremost, the result is foremost.

SuttaCentral

I guess dispassion is said to be the foremost because if there is no dispassion there will be no experience of Nibbana. Instead, Nibbana would exist as an phenomena/element but never experienced.

Per Dependent Origination, “death” (“marana”) arises from ignorance. SN 22.85 is exactly a sutta on this topic, where “death” of an Arahant is wrong view.

Now at that time a mendicant called Yamaka had the following harmful misconception:

Tena kho pana samayena yamakassa nāma bhikkhuno evarūpaṁ pāpakaṁ diṭṭhigataṁ uppannaṁ hoti:

“As I understand the Buddha’s teaching, a mendicant who has ended the defilements is annihilated and destroyed when their body breaks up, and doesn’t exist after death.”

tathāhaṁ bhagavatā dhammaṁ desitaṁ ājānāmi, yathā khīṇāsavo bhikkhu kāyassa bhedā ucchijjati vinassati, na hoti paraṁ maraṇā”ti.

SN 22.85

It’s too much forcing upon the meaning here. If you can convince yourself by such interpretation then I have no further comment. Good night :sleeping:

Similar to Bhikkhu Bodhi, the specific comment made seems not related to the suttas.

I already raised the issue/question of what is “supreme”? Is conditioned dispassion supreme? Or is unconditioned Nibbana supreme? The sutta seems to say the conditioned dispassion is supreme. This is an important matter for clarification, in my opinion. :neutral_face: Enjoy your sleep. :slightly_smiling_face:

Dispassion is the best of things,
Virāgo seṭṭho dhammānaṁ,

Dhp 273 SuttaCentral

The practitioner should be able to discern they are heading towards nibbana (ultimate release) through the taste of progressive release:

"“And as I remained thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, thinking imbued with renunciation arose in me. I discerned that 'Thinking imbued with renunciation has arisen in me; and that leads neither to my own affliction, nor to the affliction of others, nor to the affliction of both. It fosters discernment, promotes lack of vexation, & leads to Unbinding.”—Majhima Nikaya 19

In the period of pre-awakening the Buddha-to-be was pursuing this kind of image:

"the Vedas — ancient Indian religious texts that predate Buddhism by many thousands of years — describe fire as immortal: Even when extinguished it simply goes into hiding, in a latent, diffused state, only to be reborn when a new fire is lit.

" when teaching his own disciples, the Buddha used nibbana more as an image of freedom. Apparently, all Indians at the time saw burning fire as agitated, dependent, and trapped, both clinging and being stuck to its fuel as it burned. To ignite a fire, one had to “seize” it. When fire let go of its fuel, it was “freed,” released from its agitation, dependence, and entrapment — calm and unconfined. This is why Pali poetry repeatedly uses the image of extinguished fire as a metaphor for freedom. In fact, this metaphor is part of a pattern of fire imagery that involves two other related terms as well. Upadana, or clinging, also refers to the sustenance a fire takes from its fuel. Khandha means not only one of the five “heaps” (form, feeling, perception, thought processes, and consciousness) that define all conditioned experience, but also the trunk of a tree. Just as fire goes out when it stops clinging and taking sustenance from wood, so the mind is freed when it stops clinging to the khandhas.

Thus the image underlying nibbana is one of freedom. The Pali commentaries support this point by tracing the word nibbana to its verbal root, which means “unbinding.”—Thanissaro

But that’s really not that hard to do in the early stages of process of elimination.

Obviously going to a movie theater or playing video games isn’t in the direction of nibbana. Violence and self torture isn’t in the direction of nibbana. Media consumption, newspapers and politics isn’t in the direction of nibbana. Craving food or any sensual thing…

You could say about 90% of householder lifestyle activies isn’t in the direction of nibbana.

It only starts to get subtle when you’re an ascetic living an austere lifestyle without any gadgets or convenience then you may wonder if you’re reaching Arahantship or even on the path to begin with (properly understood dependent origination).

But until then, for most of us, we know we’re not heading towards nibbana here and now, unless you’re wondering if you have attained stream entry path and contemplating right view, but the suttas show that even Ariyans like Mahanama worried about not having mindfulness at the time of death and their rebirth being bad, implying they didn’t know directly they were at least sotapannas.

In that article it is said:

“But if the illusion of personal identity is seen through, if the perceived solid core is seen not to exist, there is nothing to be concerned about anymore. When it is seen that all a being is made up of are the ever-impermanent khandhas, utterly tied up with suffering, then cessation becomes the most desirable thing possible”

Who does really experience and know it that way that khandha’s are utterly tied up with suffering?

Lets be real…this is only a theory, an idea for us… because beings/we delight in khandha’s because they are in our perception not utterly tied up with suffering, but also tied up with pleasure, satisfaction, happiness, joy.

That is our reality. That is our knowledge, right? Do we really have a direct knowledge or experience that the body, feelings, perception, volition and vinnana are really only utterly tied up with suffering? I say…NO.

Because of satsifaction, joy, pleasure, happiness of the khandha’s we/beings delight in khandha’s and long for it. If khandha’s would really only be utterly tied up with suffering we really would not delight in them, desire them etc.

So it is not our real perception nor knowledge that khandha’s are utterly tied up with suffering. Please ask yourself…do i really know and see in a non-theoretical way…that khandha’s are utterly tied up with suffering?

For example…do you really experience pleasant feeling as utterly tied up with suffering or joy or happiness? Do you experience neutral feelings as utterly tied up with suffering?

The only way (i believe) that we can really know, in a non-theoretical way, that khandha’s are utterly tied up with suffering, is, if we know a happiness that does not belong to the khandha’s!
For example a happiness that is no part of vedana khandha.

One must have that reference otherwise one can never establish that, for example, even pleasant feeling is utterly tied up with suffering.

Yes, this reference is, i believe, the ultimate peace, Nibbana.

So, in fact one cannot say that khandhas are utterly tied up with suffering without seeing and personally tasting the supreme peace of Nibbana as reality, and as something one can know and taste here and now.

Without seeing Nibbana as a reality the statement–.khandha’s are utterly tied up with suffering— is only a metaphysical claim, a theory. It cannot be what one knows.

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I’m sorry, I don’t understand your point.

The Buddha.

Yes. I would think that’s obvious since we’re not arahants. But so what? What difference does it make? We can clearly see that be Buddha taught this to be the case. So if we have faith in the Buddha, we can have a degree of confidence that it’s true even if we don’t know for ourselves. It’s not unusual to regard things in this way. Most of us don’t know for ourselves that the earth is round, yet we can be reasonably sure that it is.

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My impression is that we start from wrong view and come to wrong conclusions… if… we believe that Buddha teaches that we are a being consisting of 5 instable, ever changing, khandha’s. This is a wrong start, i believe.

No, he teaches that the perception that we are a being, arises from grapsing and identifying with khandha’s, grapsing at arising bodily feelings, arising volition, arising sense-impressions, arising emotions, views, thoughts, longing etc. This grasping and identifying with arising formations creates the perception that we are something different from the supreme peace of Nibbana, a wholeness and completeness, an ultimate emptiness, in the sense that it cannot be identified as this and that.

Some people frame it like this interpretation means there is sakkaya ditthi or are involvement in a doctrine of self.

I do not believe this. It is just based on the experience, the taste, the wisdom that this peace is not seen arising and ceasing like formation. It is not a formation. While this peaceful nature stays the same, you stay the same, right? That is not an idea or theory of self. That is how things are, i believe.

If we would be only 5 fleeting khandha’s we can never ever arrive at peace. It would be useless to make an island of ourselves of try to find a solution for suffering. But if there is a basis for peace, it is not useless. The basis for peace is the present asankhata dhatu, the Buddha teaches, the Nibbana element, the element of supreme peace we can taste and experience here and now. The unfabricated.
That what is not seen arising and ceasing.

I believe one is not involved in a doctrine of self when one tastes that this peace is like your real self in a not conceived manner. It is almost like a ground. It is not that one actively conceives this peace as me, as mine, as myself. That would be attachment, grapsing, identifying. It is not like that.
That would be a mistake.

So, i believe that the Enlightend one has found a happiness, a supreme unburdened peace which is no vedana or object of the senses, a wholeness and compleness that is real.

Can this supreme peace which is not a sankhata end? How?

The idea that parinibbana is an utter extinguishment, vanishing like a particle entering Earths atmosphere (thanks to @stu) with nothing remaining, is, i believe, based upon the wrong idea that we are a being consisting of 5 aggregates which will all cease at death. In this view there is no room for a deeper understanding, an understanding of a supreme peace one can taste, see, discover, realise here and now. The taste of Nibbana.

While the Buddha uses all his creativity, wisdom, compassion to let us know we are not the 5 aggregates, and guides us in a direction we get estblised in peace, and taste this more and more, people apparantly cannot drop this view and start to see cessation of existence/khandha’s as non-existence in stead of supreme peace and happiness.

I still believe that if one aims with Dhamma at vanishing like a particle entering Earths atmosphere without nothing remaining, this is vibhava tanha. One aims at becoming non-existent after death, enjoys in that, and sees that as supreme peace. But what supreme peace can there be when there is nothing anymore? Must we really believe that this is the socalled supreme peace the Buddha sought? Vanishing forever with nothing remaining not even peace. I is all so cynical.

That is my not so modest opinion.

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Yes, great point. I think proponents of this ‘just the 5 aggregates’ theory need to flesh it out a bit more. A few more questions:

If there are just the 5 aggregates:

-how is it that the 5 aggregates give rise to Buddhas? to the dhamma?

-how does the arahant, with the aggregates scattered and abandoned, who no longer experiences arising and passing, dwells with unrestricted awareness and then somehow that awareness vanishes because the body dies? so the awareness of the arahant depends on the form aggregate that lies scattered and abandoned?

-how does the Buddha (composed of just the five aggregates -which are now scattered and abandoned) know and see that the ending of these aggregates is the greatest happiness? is the Buddha just speculating?

-how can one know and abandon things that are impermanent without employing some sort of awareness that is not impermanent?

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MN26: “Having gong forth, bhikkhus, in search of what is wholesome, seeking the supreme state of sublime peace, I went to Alara Kalama.…”

Buddha was seeking the supreme state of sublime peace, which he called Nibbana…
I believe he found it, realised it, embodies it, is it.
I believe, in the end there is no difference between Tathagata and this unconditioned peace which is also called ultimate emptiness.

I find it too cynical and poor to believe that this supreme state of sublime peace would be the same as going out like a flame, an utter extinguishment, vanishing without nothing remaining.
If all we are is 5 khandha’s and they cease totallty at death, well, it has no use at all to call this a state of supreme peace

Unfortunately the suttas don’t explain what happens when a Buddha dies.

Thank you. I like the above. I personally am not inclined towards translations such as ‘unbinding’ and ‘extinguishment’. Instead, I prefer ‘peace’ because peace is unambiguously a dhātu (element). I personally think the words ‘nirodha’ (‘cessation’) and ‘Nibbana’ are not synonymous. :slightly_smiling_face:

I have never read anything (such as in the PTS Pali English Dictionary) that asserts the common Indian meaning “to blow out” need be taken literally. As already said, I prefer ‘peace’ or, possibly more etymologically, ‘coolness’. :slightly_smiling_face:

It’s when a mendicant is a perfected one, with defilements ended, who has completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their own true goal, utterly ended the fetters of rebirth, and is rightly freed through enlightenment. For them, everything that’s felt, being no longer relished, will become cool right here (tassa idheva, bhikkhave, sabbavedayitāni anabhinanditāni sīti bhavissanti). This is called the element of Nibbana with nothing left over. Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, anupādisesā nibbānadhātu.

Iti 44

sīta
adjective

  1. cool; cold. (neuter) coolness; cold
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Coolness would fit with the Fire Sermon, SN 35.28.

I think Nibbana coincides with the cessation (nirodha) of DO.

The teacher Maha Boowa says something about PS:

"When avijjã is extinguished, conditioned phenomena—which give rise to dukkha—are also extinguished. They have disappeared from the knowing nature of the citta. Conditioned phenomena, such as thoughts, which are an integral part of the khandhas, continue to function in their own sphere but they no longer cause dukkha. Uncorrupted by kilesas, they simply give form and direction to mental activity. Consciousness arises in the mind, purely and simply without producing suffering. Viññãna paccaya nãmarrupa, nãmarupa paccaya sãîayatanam, sãlayatanam paccaya phasso: All sense media and the sense contact that they condition are just naturally occurring phenomena that exist according to their own intrinsic characteristics. They have no negative effect whatsoever on the citta that has successfully completed its task to the point of evamme tassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hoti. This is the total cessation of the entire mass of dukkha.

When avijjã and all the kilesas are extinguished, they are extinguished inside the citta. The extinction of avijjã means the destruction of the cycle of repeated birth and death. Both must be extinguished within the citta, for the avijjã-citta is the essence of the world of rebirth, the essence of birth, ageing, sickness and death. Sensual craving, with avijjã acting as the prime mover, is the root cause of birth, ageing, sickness and death—and it exists only within the citta.

When avijjã finally disintegrates, being severed from the citta forever, total cessation is achieved. The citta is then free, vast and supremely empty, without limits, without bounds—totally expansive. Nothing encloses or obstructs it. All contradictions have been eliminated. When the citta knows, it knows only the truth; when it sees, it sees only the truth. This is true emptiness" (arahattamagga/phala, page 62/63)