Nibbana as a type of consciousness: how does Buddhism differ from Advaita Vedanta?

Yes I am also aware of the cittamatra or “mind-only” Buddhists (like Ajahn Mun) so, again, that is why we are endlessly confronted with the never ceasing dog that loves to chase its tail: ego and its never ending interpretations (which is a misery in itself). An eloquent example of this in this forum is now at 704 entries (and counting):

In response to the first two bullet points above, as with the liberation from samsara, realizing the self not only ends suffering but provides the experience of permanent happiness. The misery of worldly existence occurs because of our ignorant experience of identifying with the body (another term for the five sheaths):

A person is a form composed of five sheaths or coverings (pañca-kōśa ), and as Bhagavan teaches us in verse 22 of Upadēśa Undiyār all these five sheaths (including our mind and intellect) are jaḍa (insentient or non-conscious) and asat (non-existent), so they are not ‘I’. Why they seem to be sentient and existent is only because this ego has attached itself to them, experiencing them as itself. But is the ego actually any of these insentient coverings? It seems to be a mixture of awareness (cit ) and these insentient (jaḍa ) adjuncts, but it is not actually either. It is just cit-jaḍa-granthi , a knot that seems to exist only when cit and jaḍa are seemingly entangled.

What is a knot? When two pieces of string are tied together they form a knot, but when they are untied it ceases to exist, because it has no independent existence of its own. It is not either one string or the other, but is a combination of both. Likewise, this ego is neither cit nor jaḍa but seems to be a combination of both.

What is truly sentient is only cit , which is pure awareness uncontaminated by any jaḍa adjunct, but this ego seems to be sentient because it rises as a confused mixture of cit and jaḍa . And because this ego rises by grasping the jaḍa form of a person as itself, that person seems to be sentient, and hence all the other people seen by this ego also seem to be sentient.

So destroying this ego permanently results in severing the root of ignorance, delusion (or call it as you like), notably the vasanas (similar to the Buddhist defilements). The term ego in itself is not at all what we have come to mean by it in contemporary culture. It is synonymous with the ignorant mind, maya, etc., and in fact doesn’t actually exist. But it seems to exist in our every day existence. (To deny that is to fall into another can or worms called neo-advaita with its many charlatans of the spiritual marketplace found everywhere on the web today). That is our delusion and consequentially deep rooted problem. That is why killing or severing ego (there is actually only one ego, by the way, not many egos) results in liberation and happiness.

Pure self-awareness is not nothingness but the only thing that actually exists

A friend recently wrote to me asking, ‘What is the difference between nothingness and complete self-awareness? I understand the destruction of the mind is the ultimate goal of the practice, but does that mean we aim to just be nothing at all?’, but then added, ‘Obviously this question arises from an ego that is afraid to not be, but I am curious’. The following is adapted from my reply to him:

Pure self-awareness is what we actually are, so unless you can deny your own existence it is not nothing, and hence not nothingness either (as I explained in much greater detail in one of my earlier articles: Self-knowledge is not a void (śūnya)).

Pure self-awareness is ‘nothingness’ only in the sense that it is devoid of phenomena, but phenomena are actually nothingness , because they are illusory appearances that seem to exist only in the view of the ego, which is itself not real, so they do not actually exist.

Therefore pure self-awareness is actually devoid of nothingness. It alone exists, so it is the only thing, and hence it is everything, because there is nothing other than it. It is absolute fullness — the fullness of infinite, indivisible, immutable and eternal sat-cit-ānanda: being (sat), awareness (cit) and happiness (ānanda), which are one and the same thing.

This is why Bhagavan concluded verse 12 of Uḷḷadu Nāṟpadu (the meaning of which I discussed in detail in Uḷḷadu Nāṟpadu verse 12: other than the real awareness that we actually are, there is nothing to know or make known) by saying that since it shines without any other to know or to cause to be known, what we actually are is real awareness, and it is not nothingness or a void:

அறிவறி யாமையு மற்றதறி வாமே
யறியும துண்மையறி வாகா — தறிதற்
கறிவித்தற் கன்னியமின் றாயவிர்வ தாற்றா
னறிவாகும் பாழன் றறி.

aṟivaṟi yāmaiyu maṯṟadaṟi vāmē
yaṟiyuma duṇmaiyaṟi vāhā — daṟitaṟ
kaṟivittaṟ kaṉṉiyamiṉ ḏṟāyavirva dāṯṟā
ṉaṟivāhum pāṙaṉ ṟaṟi
.

பதச்சேதம்: அறிவு அறியாமையும் அற்றது அறிவு ஆமே. அறியும் அது உண்மை அறிவு ஆகாது. அறிதற்கு அறிவித்தற்கு அன்னியம் இன்றாய் அவிர்வதால், தான் அறிவு ஆகும். பாழ் அன்று. அறி.

Padacchēdam (word-separation): aṟivu aṟiyāmaiyum aṯṟadu aṟivu āmē. aṟiyum adu uṇmai aṟivu āhādu. aṟidaṟku aṟivittaṟku aṉṉiyam iṉḏṟāy avirvadāl, tāṉ aṟivu āhum. pāṙ aṉḏṟu. aṟi.

English translation: What is devoid of knowledge and ignorance [about anything other than itself] is actually aṟivu [knowledge or awareness]. That which knows [or is aware of anything other than itself] is not real aṟivu [knowledge or awareness]. Since it shines without another for knowing or for causing to know [or causing to be known], oneself is [real] aṟivu [knowledge or awareness]. It is not a void [or nothingness]. Know [or be aware].
The absence of any phenomena seems to be nothingness only in the view of the ego (which is the false awareness that he refers to here as ‘அறியும் அது’ (aṟiyum adu), ‘that which knows’, meaning that which knows or is aware of things other than itself), because we seem to be this ego only when we are aware of phenomena, so awareness of phenomena is the very nature of the ego. It appears and co-exists with the ego in waking and dream, and disappears with it in sleep.

Since the ego does not exist in sleep, in its view sleep seems to be a state of nothingness. However, though the ego does not exist then, in sleep we exist and are aware of our existence, and hence after waking we know ‘I slept’.

The ‘I’ that existed and was aware that it existed in sleep is not the ego but what we actually are. However, since we now experience ourself as this phenomena-knowing ego, we seem to be not aware of ourself as we actually are, and hence we do not have a clear impression of what we were actually aware of in sleep, which is nothing other than the pure self-awareness that we actually are.

All this will become clear to us to the extent that we practise being keenly and persistently self-attentive, because the more keenly and persistently self-attentive we are, the more familiar we will become with self-awareness in isolation (or at least relative isolation) from all phenomena.

The self can be known by a three prong practice: hearing (or studying self knowledge), deeply reflecting on the implications of this knowledge and self inquiry. Of the three, the last – self inquiry, self investigation or self attentiveness (all synonymous) – is of the most importance. So yes, self knowledge is important in order to know how to orient oneself, but highly insufficient for the penny (ego) to drop. For that, the practice of self attentiveness is paramount.

If the ego comes into existence, everything comes into existence; if the ego does not exist, everything does not exist. [Hence] the ego itself is everything. Therefore, know that investigating what this [the ego] is alone is giving up everything.

If you wish to understand this more fully, I highly recommend you read the following:

I hope this helps.

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I am totally free from any opinion on this very moment :innocent:

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I think there’s many clear answers to this I’m surprised haven’t been touched on at all, such as the value of the Vedas, the precepts that should be followed by laity and monastics, how the monastic community should be organized, etc. These exoteric points are both the most easily articulated and the most clearly distinct. The expression of the ultimate esoteric goal of practice is not agreed upon in either Buddhism or AV, and so the difference between them is not discernible.

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Another difference might the 12 links of dependent origination? :pray:

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This question leads to a more interesting question. What was the Buddha’s great innovation? I think if you know the answer to this question I think you have the answer to how is Buddhism different from Brahmanism, Advaita Vedanta, and Jainism.

Oke, but was his search really motivated by innovation? Or did he just seek the sublime state of supreme peace like the sutta’s say? And why is it impossible that the same state of sublime peace cannot be found with any other person, any other religion, any other Path?

His goal was profound peace. The question being asked is how does Buddhism differ from Avaita Vedanta. I am saying that the answer to that question and the answer to the question how does it differ from Brahmanism and Jainism was his great innovation. What was that?

His teaching was independent of dogmas. The proof of that being

It delivers in regardless of them.

Oke, thanks. I agree with you that Buddha’s teachings was independ of dogma’s. But was Advaita?

I do not see dispassion, peace, Nibbana as anything cultural and surely not as buddhism.
It is always about nature. Nibbana is not something buddhist at all. It is about nature. The nature of pure mind. I feel most safe not to be a buddhist or whatever.

I do still not know what @yeshe.tenley really wants.

Both Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism are “big tent” paths with many variants. Comparing the grand labels directly is likely to remain vague. It is probably better to narrow down the focus to comparisons between say the “Neti Neti” approach of Vedanta and the Aniccā, Dukkha, Anattā approach of Buddhism. Will they result in the same insight? If so, why? If not, why not?
Similarly, Moksha vs. Nibbana, five sheaths vs five aggregates , etc.
There are obviously similarities between the two prominent philosophies, to figure out the differences, specific comparisons are better than general concepts.

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Buddhism dispels not only the characteristics of anatta, but also the characteristics of anicca and dukkha. According to Buddha, All things are impermanent and that is why you should not cling to them. Any type of consciousness is impermanent: gross or refined, low or sublime. You can say that nibbana is permanent. But nibbana is the extinction of clinging and aggregates. There is nothing there to be permanent or impermanent, since it is an unsigned phenomenon that establishes the absence rather than the presence of something positively existing. Therefore, the idea of ​​​​a constant, happy consciousness fundamentally contradicts the teachings of the Buddha. If such consciousness always exists, then how does it differ from jivatma, the soul. And why it becomes polluted and drawn into samsara. If it was involved in samsara, then its purification and liberation is a change in it, which means, as we already see, it is not so permanent. And this impermanence, such as new pollution, will manifest itself in the future as suffering. And if this consciousness arises at the moment of awakening, then again it arises, which means it ceases, that is, anicca, and therefore dukkha.

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Hello Bhante.
What about those Mahayana followers (for example Gelug) who agree that the stream of consciousness consists of momentary purified cittas, that is, formally impermanent, but at the same time remains constantly purified and therefore devoid of dukkha forever.

They do not consider this constancy of purity to be a violation of the law of anicca (after all, nibbana - the extinction of defilements - is nicca in the teachings of the Buddha).

At the same time, they do not agree that their consciousness is atta by nature, because formally it consists of individual impermanent and conditioned moments, and therefore is empty.

Buddha teaches such things because he wants to guide beings to a mind without any clinging. In that they will find real peace, real safety, real protection. Only then they will get what they seek .

Vipassana, contemplating anatta, anicca, dukkha are tools to guide the mind towards this peaceful dispassion, non-agitation, Nibbana.

Does vinnana arise in the mind? Or can vinnana’s also arise in rupa or in space?

Hi NIkolas, I do not know about this Mahayana understanding, so my interpretation may be wrong. But the way you explain it, it seems to break causality/dependency as explained by the Buddha. If they see consciousness as conditioned moments, as you say, then according to Dependent Origination it all has its origin in ignorance. Without ignorance and other defilements, there is no cause/condition to keep conciousness going on forever.

Either way, theoretically/textually we can never come to a 100% conclusion on what the Buddha thought nibbana is. Otherwise there wouldn’t be this many different interpretations. What we can do is determine what is most likely what he meant, and see if we can back that up with direct insight. And it seems very unlikely this Mahayana idea you explain here fits anywhere in the early texts.

Who says “happy” and that it “exist” or not “exist”?

You can comment here↓, this is not a topic for such discussions.

An arahant is supposed to have no avijja but still is a conscious person, seeing, hearing etc.

Seeing, hearing etc does not seem to find its origin in avijja. BUT engaged-seeing, hearing, i.e the eye-ear…mind catching moments, do. And when avijja ceases, this eye-ear…mind catching moments that Buddha often called vinnana’s, do not happen anymore. But there is still seeing, hearing, etc

Without avijja, seeing, hearing etc. also arises but now without eye- -ear-…mind being caught.

I think we can all see the huge difference here and now between seeing and a eye-catching moment.
That last always relies on some attachment or engagement with the sense-object. Some interest, often emotional (like, dislike) but also sometimes as in; this is me, mine, my self’.

If such engagement does not happen, and there are many such moments in the life of every person, there is still seeing, hearing etc but very different from the eye-catching moment. In every sense domain this is the same principle.

The Buddha talked in different ways about engagement, for example in detail 7 anusaya. But in general engagement is what is needed for eye, ear…mind catching moments to happen.

In think we must look into the context what Vinnana really means and also what vinnana-nirodha really means. In general vinnana refers to an engaged, caught kind of knowing (MN28). And this has allready ceased for the arahant. I think vinnana-nirodha does not have to refer to the absence of all knowing but absence of eye-ear…mind catching moments. We must look deeper into what vinnana really means in a given context. But to translate it as consciousness does not help doing that.

As a general observation, I have noticed a tendency in Advaita circles to make Buddhism and Advaita sound similar. I’m not sure why they have a need to do this.

I do not know anything of Advaita but i think that people that look at the fruits of their practice see similarities with other traditions. Is detachment not just detachment? Even christian mystics speak of detachment as fruit. Is this detachment really different from a buddhist who attain detachment?
And why?

Sure is, the teachings and methods are very different but does that mean that they also always lead to different fruits?

I also feel we must not see a Buddha as someone who started a religion nor Jesus.

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I think you can find similarities and differences when comparing most religious traditions. What I find puzzling is the need some have to find only similarities, denying the differences.

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4th January 1978

Sadhu Om: Now, in the waking state, we say so many things about the [deep] sleep state,
because we have no clear idea of what sleep is. If we make proper research into sleep, we will
discover that there is no difference between sleep and jnana. We can now take sleep as an
example of the happiness that is enjoyed in the absence of the ‘I’, world and God. Our love of
sleep proves our love of egolessness, as Bhagavan implies in verse 3 of Ulladu Narpadu: ‘[…]
that state devoid of ‘I’ is agreeable to everyone’. What we now call sleep appears to be
limited because on waking we rise again as ‘I’, but jnana has no such limitation, so the
happiness of jnana is unlimited.
Nowadays people try to glorify Bhagavan by saying that he is great because he said
something that Buddha said, something else that Christ said, and so on, as if his greatness
could not stand by itself. Christ, Buddha, Sankara, Ramakrishna and others were all great
examples of jnanis, but outwardly they roamed about arguing, teaching and founding
religions, whereas Bhagavan is jnana itself, so he just kept quiet. It is absurd to try to show
his greatness in the light of these jnanis, because his greatness is the self-shining source of all
light. Doing so is like propping a bamboo at the foot of Arunachala and saying that we are
helping the hill to stand, whereas in fact many such bamboos can grow on it.
We are told that we project the world, but this does not mean that the seer is the projector.
We, the seer (the mind or ego), are part of the projection, as Bhagavan says in verse 160 of
Guru Vachaka Kovai:
The false person [or soul] who behaves as ‘I’ occurs as one among the shadow pictures
[in this world picture, which is like a cinema show].
Who is this ‘I’ we say is the projector? By our investigating ‘who am I?’ the non-existence
of both the projector and its projection will be exposed.
Arguments about world and God are futile, as Bhagavan teaches us in verses 2 and 3 of
Ulladu Narpadu. The manyness of the world allows for dualities such as real or unreal,
conscious or non-conscious, and happy or miserable. Where there is duality there will be
doubt. Self is one, devoid of duality, so self-knowledge will allow no room for dualities or
doubts. Therefore, we should avoid doing research on God or the world, and should instead
do research only on ‘I’. ‘I’ will then disappear along with both God and the world. The
resulting ‘state of egolessness is agreeable to everyone’ (Ulladu Narpadu verse 3), as shown
by our experience of sleep.

The-Paramount-importance-of-sel - Sri Sadhu Om.pdf (923.2 KB)

A few reasons:

  1. Advaita is not internationalized unlike Buddhism. It is known in detail only to small groups of people who know Sanskrit, studying it through translations are discouraged as translations have a distorting effect and the subject is highly intricate when studied in depth (sort of like Abhidharma on steroids). Early-Buddhism on the other hand is not a particularly scholastic philosophy and is widely understandable to laymen, EBTs are widely translated and widely available online and offline. More Advaitins know Buddhism than the other way round. So they are the ones who can really compare.
  2. The Buddha was antagonistic to Vedic ritualism but not to the pre-Buddhist Wisdom Traditions (both of which the Brahmins were custodians of). So the Buddha had a love-hate relationship with the Brahminical class. He criticizes ritualist sacrifices while he calls wise people of his own type “brahmins”. This is not clearly understood by most Buddhists who think there was a civilizational conflict between everything Brahmin and everything Buddhist, and then wonder how could the Buddha not be anything other than a direct opponent of everything Vedic and Brahminical. Academic literature also promotes this agenda of Buddhism vs Brahminism.
  3. Advaitins are attracted to Buddhism as they see the commonalities and they are exposed to it. They are secure in their self-identity and are not scared of being subsumed under Buddhism. Buddhists (specially those who are ideologically-motivated) seek to repel Advaita as they see it as Brahmanical Hinduism seeking to swallow Buddhism whole and which denies their-own understanding of how the Buddha started a civilizational conflict between Buddhism & Vedic brahmanism, and see themselves as heirs of the Buddha and feel obliged to repel Advaita Vedanta to maintain Buddhism’s purity, authenticity and distinctiveness (as well as their own self-identity).
  4. Advaita vedanta is seen as a philosophy of the Brahmin-elites while early-Buddhism is seen as a common-man’s philosophy - this is the case at least in India.
    I hope I have covered most of the reasons, if you feel something is misstated or misunderstood pls let me know.
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