My intent was to make a point that the experience of the saupadisesa nibbana in my view does not necessarily arise when abiding in lofty meditation states or exalted realms like that of Brahma. Whether this was relevant or smart (I now think it kind of was), is another thing.
This is a different issue IMO. Note that he says that the Thatagata can’t be found even now in the khandhas!
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Does true understanding of the three marks come before, after or at the same time as nibbana? - see SN22.59 - it comes before stream entry. Three marks lead to repulsion, leads to dispassion, which in turn leads to cessation (the fruit of stream entry).
Does a true understanding of rebirth come before, after or at the same time as nibbana? - This is not a must. Only some arahanths will have the ‘three knowledges’ (tevijja) which includes seeing past lives. Even those who are not Stream entrants can see past lives. Non-Buddhists can see past lives as can little children sometimes! Sometimes with hypnotic regression from a past life therapist. So it would come before attaining Nibbana.
Does a true understanding of Kamma come before, after or at the same time as nibbana? Again before. But this is rarer than the past life knowledge. it is one of the ‘three knowledges’.
Does a true understanding of DO come before, after or at the same time as nibbana? True understanding of the Four Noble Truths can come only after seeing Nibbana (st stream entry). To know that the Noble Eightfold Path leads to Nibbana (and experience Nibbana) the path must be completed. It is only then we will know-as a Truth- that the path ‘works’. The forward version of the DO is the 2nd Noble Truth. The ceasing version is the third Noble Truth. A person may understand basic principles of the DO and taste specific conditionality (idapaccayata) but lack the vocabulary to explain what happened post the nibbanic experience. Only a Buddha can truly discern their attainment. Also only the Buddha will see the DO in depth. If someone can’t see past life’s it is unlikely they will truly visually see their past life DO links (or other people’s links). So seeing a few links is enough.
Does a true understanding of ‘what had to be done is done’ come before, after or at the same time as nibbana? After wards. There is what is called ‘reviewing knowledge’ (paccavekkhana nana) that arises after the attainment.
Does a true understanding of the following come before, after or at the same time as nibbana -…birth is finished etc:
Afterwards. No cognitive activity (Sankhara) is active as they have ceased.
With metta
Correct! There are two types of arahanths. Those released through wisdom (pannavimutti) and those released both ways (ubathobaghiya). Both have form jhanas. The latter had formless jhanas as well and can experience cessation Isi this life, going past the formless realm into nirodhasamapatti. Yet the former as fully understood enlightened as well. For the descriptions of not having craving, aversion and delusion fits. For the latter descriptions of cessation fits. Both explanations can ‘exist’ side by side!
With metta
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some contradiction here in your own statements.
In an ‘ultimate reality’ sense there are only dhammas arising and passing away based on causes and effects. There are no selves, trees, mountains etc. Those are conventional perceptions based on ignorance. This doesn’t mean we cannot switch between talking in a conventional way or in terms of ultimate reality as needed. It is said the Buddha often used the term ‘I’ and indeed all conversation and even teaching the dhamma would be impossible without conventional language!
With metta
So in an ‘ultimate reality’ sense, according to your rational, seeing past lives is a delusion born of ignorance.
No. The misperception of the dhammas underlying the vision of past lives, as being that of a self rather than just more dhammas, is the issue. There were past lives.
With metta
but you have already said:
Which, in effect means, pre-awakened individuals cannot see their ‘past lives’. They are just imagining it.
My insufficient answer is very short.[quote=“Mat, post:1, topic:5058”]
Does this mean that there is something called Nibbana,[/quote]No. (Yes.) [quote=“Mat, post:1, topic:5058”]apart from the ending of things or the absence of them?[/quote]No.
If I were to qualify myself a bit more, I am being a pedant and taking exception with your usages of “some-thing” for Nibbāna (hence my “No.”) but understanding what you mean (I hope), and ignoring my pedantry (hence my “(Yes.)”).
I think, in order for Nibbāna to “definitely” be something (there is it again!) apart, different, or “more” than cessations and absences, there would have to be a description of it as something specifically “apart from cessation and absence”, which I think is lacking in EBTS, or only “cryptically/indirectly” stated if stated, thus anything on the matter is largely an inference: none of us know what complete cessation & absence look like, therefore we are all of us a certain layer removed from the Buddha’s discourses “describing” the Deathless, as he can, from an experiential POV.
That being said, we all have to infer things on occasional to live our lives with any degree of functionality: as long as one knows that one’s inferences are merely inferences, is it a problem that they are inferences anymore?
When you wake up today morning you remember what happened yesterday. When you remember something you arent travelling back in time- in a the structure of a newly arisen thought you ‘re-imagine’/ recreate from past information. This isn’t 100% accurate as it’s not the same experience but a reproduction. Remembering past lives is the same, whether enlightened or not. It’s mode is one of ‘conventional reality’.
What do you all think of the following. It seems to be straightforwardly saying that nibbana is achieved whilst in a meditative state of jhana or higher. I’ve included 2 paragraphs from the same sutta as they differ slightly:
a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna, … Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, … as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna."
a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the base of nothingness. Whatever exists therein of feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, … as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna." mn64
That sutta does say that Nibbana is attained in a perisamadhi state. It’s not explicit that one is in that state or having emerged from it. I recall some disputative discussions on DW about the grammar of the Pali in ambiguous situations like these. And we’re relying on English translations unless we know the Pali well! Perhaps @Sylvester can weigh in as I think he was involved.
There are also many suttas that have someone realizing Nibbana upon some sort of reflection or perception or insight with no mention of jhana or any samadhi state. Many don’t mention the 4NT—perhaps their realization is implied, but we can’t say for sure. My tentative conclusion is that achieving Nibbana is not the same for everybody.
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Leave aside the grammar. There’s a simpler solution. See AN 9.35 which states that the realisation comes after arising from the attainment. But better use BB’s translation.
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[quote=“Mkoll, post:12, topic:5058”]
AN 4.173 objectifies non-objectification appapañcaṃan papañceti. ‘[/quote]
To me, I am not sure how this quote answers the question of: “Nibbana - does it exist?”. Further, the translation of Bhante Thanissaro appears questionable to me, where Thanissaro is possibly inferring the term appapañcaṃan is a synonym for Nibbana, i.e., is Nibbana itself. Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation is: “one proliferates that which is not to be proliferated”, which sounds better to me.
‘Nirodha’ appears synonymous with ‘Nibbana’ therefore the phrase: “asesa-virāga-nirodhā-asesa: remainderless quenching & fading” appears to be Nibbana itself. For example:
To whatever extent there are phenomena conditioned or unconditioned, dispassion (virāgo) is declared the foremost among them, that is, the crushing of pride, the removal of thirst, the uprooting of attachment, the termination of the round, the destruction of craving, dispassion (virāgo), cessation (nirodho), nibbāna (nibbāna). AN 4.34
Therefore, the message of AN 4.173 might possibly be: 'when remainderless quenching & fading occurs, i.e., when Nibbana is realised, it is not asked/speculated (papañceti): “is there something beyond/better than/of greater benefit than this”.
Note: When papañceti ends, Nibbana is not automatically realised because there remain underlying defilements (kilesa). ‘Papañceti’ is basically ‘thinking’ and when the meditator can stop ‘thinking’ there still remains lots of work to do to uproot the defilements. That is probably why the term ‘appapañcaṃan’ is not found in the standard definitions of Nibbana, which highlight the destruction & uprooting of craving (tanha).
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I think any sutta needs to be seriously questioned when it is a departure from the norm.
For me, the Nibbana referred to in relation to the 1st jhana is not the final Nibbana when craving & the defilements are destroyed & uprooted so they can never arise again but merely the ‘taste’ of Nibbana known by a stream-enterer & once-returner.
The sutta appears to be essentially saying when the meditator discerns the unsatisfactoriness (dukkha) of the jhana factors, such as rapture, and discerns the satisfactoriness of Nibbana, that is, ‘relinquishing & letting go’, the mind turns towards/takes refuge in the relinquishing & letting go rather than delights in the rapture & other jhana factors.
Bhante Brahmavamso’s book has an excellent discussion of letting go & how jhanas are states of letting go.
Regards 
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@DaoYaoTao: I agree with you that Nibbana can be achieved in the first Jhanna or higher. MN64 is very obvious about it as you said. Here is another sutta confirms it:
“Bhikkhus, I say that the destruction of the taints occurs in dependence on the first jhāna…the second jhāna…the third jhāna…the fourth jhāna…the base of infinity of space…the base of the infinity of consciousness…the base of nothingness…the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception…the cessation of perception and feeling.
_“When it was said: ‘Bhikkhus, I say that the destruction of the taints occurs in dependence on the first jhāna,’ for what reason was this said? Here, secluded from sensual pleasures … a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the first jhāna …. He considers whatever phenomena exist there pertaining to form, feeling, perception, volitional activities, and consciousness as impermanent, suffering, an illness, a boil, a dart, misery, affliction, alien, disintegrating, empty, and non-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena and directs it to the deathless element thus: ‘This is peaceful, this is sublime, that is, the stilling of all activities, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbāna.’ If he is firm in this, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints because of that lust for the Dhamma, because of that delight in the Dhamma, then, with the utter destruction of the five lower fetters, he becomes one of spontaneous birth, due to attain final nibbāna there without ever returning from that world."_AN9.36
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Thanks @Deeele. Could you point to a sutta that is the norm. I will read it.
Which book ! ? 
Dude give me references! Good post though and Thanks again
Thanks ! 
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The ‘norm’ is the four jhanas are completed and then Nibbana is attained. For example:
Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhāna…With the stilling of applied and sustained thought, I entered upon and abided in the second jhāna…, With the fading away as well of rapture, I abided in equanimity, and mindful and fully aware, still feeling pleasure with the body, I entered upon and abided in the third jhāna… With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, I entered upon and abided in the fourth jhāna…When my concentrated mind was thus purified, bright, unblemished, rid of imperfection, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, I directed it to knowledge of the destruction of the taints. I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is suffering’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the origin of suffering’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the cessation of suffering’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’ I directly knew as it actually is: ‘These are the taints’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the origin of the taints’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the cessation of the taints’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of the taints.’…When I knew and saw thus, my mind was liberated from the taint of sensual desire, from the taint of being, and from the taint of ignorance. When it was liberated, there came the knowledge: ‘It is liberated.’ I directly knew: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.’
MN 4
[quote=“DaoYaoTao, post:53, topic:5058”]
Dude give me references![/quote]
Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond
The Jhanas
Simply put, Jhana states are stages of letting go.
I looks like I was wrong here about MN 64 because MN 64 states:
… a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion… He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’ If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints.… MN 64.
The destruction of the taints (āsavānaṃ khayaṃ) is arahantship. Therefore, my rationale was not correct (even though I still consider attaining arahantship from the 1st jhana is questionable & a departure from the norm).
Reading MN 64 again, the translation states:
And what, Ānanda, is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters? Here, with seclusion from the acquisitions, with the abandoning of unwholesome states, with the complete tranquillization of bodily inertia, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna… He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element… If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints because of that desire for the Dhamma, that delight in the Dhamma, then with the destruction of the five lower fetters he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously [in the Pure Abodes] and there attain final Nibbāna without ever returning from that world. This is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters.
It appears the subject matter of MN 64 is the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters. In other words, it not explicitly about Nibbana.
Therefore, my reading of MN 64 is it is stating:
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A practitioner reaches the 1st jhana.
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If the practitioner is not attached to the 1st jhana by focusing on the (immature) Deathless / Nibbana element, the practitioner steady in that will eventually attain the destruction of the taints in this life however via the 2nd, 3rd & 4th jhanas.
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If the practitioner delights in the 1st jhana & other jhanas, the practitioner will never reach Arahant Nibbana in this life but only the state of Non-Returner (i.e., the Pure Abodes).
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Therefore, if the practitioner reaches either Arahant Nibbana or Non-Returner, in both cases, the five lower fetters will be abandoned.
With metta
D-Dude 
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